I'm involved with a project that involves creating pages for a pocket pc. The browser it uses only supports HTML 3.2 (which is based on pIE). It doesn't support CSS.<br />
<br />
My struggle is trying to come up with a decent layout without CSS. But the way the pages were designed, they must have specific positioning. I know I could accomplish this if I could at least use a few deprecated elements like the height and width attributes for tables and rows.<br />
<br />
It seems everyone is preaching to never use deprecated elements and use CSS instead. But when CSS is not an option, wouldn't the use of certain deprecated elements not be such a bad thing? Otherwise, it seems I have nothing to work with.<br />
<br />
Caught between a rock and a hard spot.<!--content-->If the UI only supports HTML 3.2 and that is the only device that is going to view your pages then I suggest that you use valid HTML 3.2 which means that the depreciated elements don't apply anymore.<br />
<br />
Just slap an HTML 3.2 doctype on your page and make sure it validates.
<!--content-->This only supports 3.2 though, no wml? This is pocket pc but no wml.... If I were you I would use the asp.net mobile controls (I am a .net guy) which adapt your code for different devices based on the user agent. It can output wml obviously, but I am not sure about 3.2, probably so. Either way it is going to constrict your ability to make a layout but it will allow you to accomidate more mobile devices atleast and then focus on layout for your site for pc users. Thats just the way I see it. However if you site is definatly only for pocket pc, I aggree with lavalamp, just design with 3.2, cram some align and width attributes in and be happy and make a table based layout... No nesting though! We preach accessability here, and css is accessable, so if you made a site with css the content would still be there on pocket pc but your layout would disappear. But if you are constricted to just this platform do what it requires. If I were making mobile pages I would not be using my regular css layouts and html, I mean wml is different so there are points at which we all draw the line. Let me put it this way, use css and comply with the current standards when you are designing for a desktop computer or laptop, but keep a separate site for mobile devices when you have mobile users, do not try to integrate them with the regular site, you are going to give yourself a headache like that.<!--content-->Thanks for all your perspectives. I just hope other people I work with can see it that way, like project managers. They tend to oversimplify their understanding of how things work. They assume all web browsers are the same. They also think browsers somehow magically position everything on screens to make everything fit, and don't understand the forethought that needs to go into page design, especially for mobile devices. And if they even see the word deprecation, they're likely to have a breakdown. If I had it my way, I would make our company upgrade all the devices that support html 4.0 at all or our sites, but that costs money and I don't have that kind of clout!<!--content-->Originally posted by CurtM <br />
If I had it my way, I would make our company upgrade all the devices that support XHTML 1.1 at all or our sites, but that costs money and I don't have that kind of clout!<br />
<br />
PeOfEo, have you actually learnt WML? I never bothered since I don't see the point, I mean I know that it's similar to (X)HTML but I'm never going to want to make a site for a mobile device.<!--content-->Curt, for that browser you need to concentrate on delivering the content with the correct structure and forget the fancy presentation.<!--content-->Originally posted by lavalamp <br />
<br />
<br />
PeOfEo, have you actually learnt WML? I never bothered since I don't see the point, I mean I know that it's similar to (X)HTML but I'm never going to want to make a site for a mobile device. No, but it would not take me long at all because like you said its like xhtml, infact that all it is, is a very strict xml, its not really its own language IMO. The asp.net mobile controls I mentioned are not a substitute for knowing it, they can just alter your code for you. Believe it or not but I do use xhtml, but when I am making a site that is form intensive I revert back to 4.01 because its a whole heck of a lot easier to handle forms in asp.net that way, its not hard to do the deisgn with html forms like in asp classic but the asp.net controls make stuff insanely easy but it would mean I would be using the name attribute and some other stuff that will not validate as xhtml, so that is why you are not going to see it too much in my sites. I am working on a block right now and I will probbably make it all xhtml though.<!--content-->
<br />
My struggle is trying to come up with a decent layout without CSS. But the way the pages were designed, they must have specific positioning. I know I could accomplish this if I could at least use a few deprecated elements like the height and width attributes for tables and rows.<br />
<br />
It seems everyone is preaching to never use deprecated elements and use CSS instead. But when CSS is not an option, wouldn't the use of certain deprecated elements not be such a bad thing? Otherwise, it seems I have nothing to work with.<br />
<br />
Caught between a rock and a hard spot.<!--content-->If the UI only supports HTML 3.2 and that is the only device that is going to view your pages then I suggest that you use valid HTML 3.2 which means that the depreciated elements don't apply anymore.<br />
<br />
Just slap an HTML 3.2 doctype on your page and make sure it validates.
<!--content-->This only supports 3.2 though, no wml? This is pocket pc but no wml.... If I were you I would use the asp.net mobile controls (I am a .net guy) which adapt your code for different devices based on the user agent. It can output wml obviously, but I am not sure about 3.2, probably so. Either way it is going to constrict your ability to make a layout but it will allow you to accomidate more mobile devices atleast and then focus on layout for your site for pc users. Thats just the way I see it. However if you site is definatly only for pocket pc, I aggree with lavalamp, just design with 3.2, cram some align and width attributes in and be happy and make a table based layout... No nesting though! We preach accessability here, and css is accessable, so if you made a site with css the content would still be there on pocket pc but your layout would disappear. But if you are constricted to just this platform do what it requires. If I were making mobile pages I would not be using my regular css layouts and html, I mean wml is different so there are points at which we all draw the line. Let me put it this way, use css and comply with the current standards when you are designing for a desktop computer or laptop, but keep a separate site for mobile devices when you have mobile users, do not try to integrate them with the regular site, you are going to give yourself a headache like that.<!--content-->Thanks for all your perspectives. I just hope other people I work with can see it that way, like project managers. They tend to oversimplify their understanding of how things work. They assume all web browsers are the same. They also think browsers somehow magically position everything on screens to make everything fit, and don't understand the forethought that needs to go into page design, especially for mobile devices. And if they even see the word deprecation, they're likely to have a breakdown. If I had it my way, I would make our company upgrade all the devices that support html 4.0 at all or our sites, but that costs money and I don't have that kind of clout!<!--content-->Originally posted by CurtM <br />If I had it my way, I would make our company upgrade all the devices that support XHTML 1.1 at all or our sites, but that costs money and I don't have that kind of clout!
<br /><br />
PeOfEo, have you actually learnt WML? I never bothered since I don't see the point, I mean I know that it's similar to (X)HTML but I'm never going to want to make a site for a mobile device.<!--content-->Curt, for that browser you need to concentrate on delivering the content with the correct structure and forget the fancy presentation.<!--content-->Originally posted by lavalamp <br />
<br /><br />
PeOfEo, have you actually learnt WML? I never bothered since I don't see the point, I mean I know that it's similar to (X)HTML but I'm never going to want to make a site for a mobile device. No, but it would not take me long at all because like you said its like xhtml, infact that all it is, is a very strict xml, its not really its own language IMO. The asp.net mobile controls I mentioned are not a substitute for knowing it, they can just alter your code for you. Believe it or not but I do use xhtml, but when I am making a site that is form intensive I revert back to 4.01 because its a whole heck of a lot easier to handle forms in asp.net that way, its not hard to do the deisgn with html forms like in asp classic but the asp.net controls make stuff insanely easy but it would mean I would be using the name attribute and some other stuff that will not validate as xhtml, so that is why you are not going to see it too much in my sites. I am working on a block right now and I will probbably make it all xhtml though.<!--content-->