well what do you think of 'em?<br />
The <iframe> tag that is.<br />
I think they're pretty cool, but what do I know....<br />
Also is it poss to replace the scrollbars with a little j'script tied to a couple of 'arrow' shaped gifs that do the same thing, only a little more stylishly. <br />
<br />
I'm thinking of using iframes in my next site (if I ever bloody finish this one!)<br />
<br />
Do they cause the same problems with search engine ratings as normal frames can? I wouldn't of thought so as you'd just put the meta's in the parent html doc.<br />
<br />
<br />
Your wize opinions sought....<br />
<br />
<br />
Your humble mumble,<br />
<br />
d
<!--content-->The fundamental problem with the design of frames is that framesets create states in the browser that are not addressable. Once any of the frames within a frameset changes from its default content, there is no longer a way to address the current state of the frameset. It is difficult to bookmark - and impossible to link or index - such a frameset state. It is impossible to reference such a frameset state in other media. When the sub-documents of such a frameset state are accessed directly, they appear without the context of the surrounding frameset. Basic browser functions (e.g., printing, moving forwards/backwards in the browser's history) behave differently with framesets. Also, browsers cannot identify which frame should have focus, which affects scrolling, searching, and the use of keyboard shortcuts in general. <br />
<br />
Furthermore, frames focus on layout rather than on information structure, and many authors of framed sites neglect to provide useful alternative content in the <NOFRAMES> element. Both of these factors cause accessibility problems for browsers that differ significantly from the author's expectations and for search engines. <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Do search engines dislike frames?<br />
<br />
Search engines can link directly to framed content documents, but they cannot link to the combinations of frames for which those content documents were designed. This is the result of a fundamental flaw in the design of frames. <br />
<br />
Search engines try to provide their users with links to useful documents. Many framed content documents are difficult to use when accessed directly (outside their intended frameset), so there is little benefit if search engines offer links to them. Therefore, many search engines ignore frames completely and go about indexing more useful (non-framed) documents. <br />
<br />
Search engines will index your <NOFRAMES> content, and any content that is accessible via your <NOFRAMES> content. Such content should be useful when accessed directly from a search-engine link.<!--content-->I'm not sure that they would pose a problem to search engines. I've played a bit with iFrames... and I too think they are pretty darn kewl. Would I use them for a whole site..? I dunno... cause as I've come to understand through this board and a couple others, they still aren't real compatrible with any browser other then IE.. and I know that Netscape 4.7 ignores them completely and makes a horrid mess of any page they are on (like it just doesn't render the page at all... any content... bleh!).<br />
<br />
Maybe as browser's improve they would be a viable idea... but right now I think I'd be real sure before using them that almost all your traffic would be using IE..<br />
<br />
Just my two cents worth here.<br />
<br />
Oh and Montroze dear... there is a difference between iFrames and regular frames.. iFrames are... well... framlets in a sense that its a inserted section into a page that is independent of the rest of the page as far as content. Actually easier for small snippets of content then fighting framing an entire site.
<!--content-->very well said Mary. I do have to agree they can look cool but as mary said, NS4.x does not like them. if you want to target only IE then by all means go right ahead. <!--content-->How Contrary Mary (sorry I couldn't resist that one 
)<br />
<br />
Thank you both for your responses.<br />
As far as NN 4.7 *SPITS* is concerned I was thinking along thr lines of having a browser sniffer, a redirect to a page with a bog standard layout for those ppl still using that schmuck of a browser. Man I H8 that thing.<br />
<br />
So kewl then, but what about the 'different arrows' instead of scrollbars, do youse guys think it's be possible?<br />
<br />
Thankyou both for your input, it's a nightmare regarding frames and search Engy's innit?<br />
<br />
So I can take it that iframe doesn't really get put in that catagory tho'?<br />
<br />
Regards, <br />
<br />
d<!--content--> The only reason I don't have "silver bells and ****le shells and marigolds all in a row" is cause I killed them. Like I said... I don't think iFrames would bother search engines...though any content that gets loaded into them will probably not get noted. That at least is my guess because of the nature of them, both the search engines and the iFrames.<br />
<br />
Wish I could help on the arrows thing... but I haven't a clue. Bet one of the mods might know though...<br />
<br />
Don't hate the browser... for many years it really was better then IE to me. Its only been the past few months that I've stopped using it for anything other then layout testing. You're idea on the browser sniffer deal is a good one though. Yeah its a pain in the.. ahem... buuut... for now unfortunately its what we as page creators and designers have to wrestle with.<br />
<br />
Look at it this way... cross-browser compatibility keeps your brain from getting stale and lazy.<!--content-->I think you can use the arrows that you were talking about. I remember seeing a page that used them, but for the life of me can't remember what is was. I will look around and see if I can find it. An Iframe is like an include,1 from what I understand, so you should not have any problem with search engines.<!--content-->From a usability point of view, they cause problems. Users get all confused when trying to print or using the back button. I stay away from them whenever possible.<br />
Marilyn<!--content-->Originally posted by The Dreamer <br />
<br />
Oh and Montroze dear... there is a difference between iFrames and regular frames.. iFrames are... well... framlets in a sense that its a inserted section into a page that is independent of the rest of the page as far as content. Actually easier for small snippets of content then fighting framing an entire site. <br />
<br />
Yes I know that, the posting was about a framed site as it mentioned, I didnt referance iframes in the posting.<br />
<br />
I have a framed site.<!--content-->To replace scrollbars by images:<br />
<br />
<img name="scrollUp" alt="Scroll Up" src=http://www.htmlforums.com/archive/index.php/"scrollUp.gif" onclick="window.scrollBy(-10)"><br />
<img name="scrollDown" alt="Scroll Down" src=http://www.htmlforums.com/archive/index.php/"scrollDown.gif" onclick="window.scrollBy(10)"><br />
<br />
Will work for IE4+ and NS6. (Will also for NN4 but not in IFrames.)<br />
Change the value (10) to scroll by a greater/lesser amount.<!--content-->i have no problems with them, except with netscape conflicts. I think their good for people that dont have access to ssi<!--content-->
The <iframe> tag that is.<br />
I think they're pretty cool, but what do I know....<br />
Also is it poss to replace the scrollbars with a little j'script tied to a couple of 'arrow' shaped gifs that do the same thing, only a little more stylishly. <br />
<br />
I'm thinking of using iframes in my next site (if I ever bloody finish this one!)<br />
<br />
Do they cause the same problems with search engine ratings as normal frames can? I wouldn't of thought so as you'd just put the meta's in the parent html doc.<br />
<br />
<br />
Your wize opinions sought....<br />
<br />
<br />
Your humble mumble,<br />
<br />
d
<!--content-->The fundamental problem with the design of frames is that framesets create states in the browser that are not addressable. Once any of the frames within a frameset changes from its default content, there is no longer a way to address the current state of the frameset. It is difficult to bookmark - and impossible to link or index - such a frameset state. It is impossible to reference such a frameset state in other media. When the sub-documents of such a frameset state are accessed directly, they appear without the context of the surrounding frameset. Basic browser functions (e.g., printing, moving forwards/backwards in the browser's history) behave differently with framesets. Also, browsers cannot identify which frame should have focus, which affects scrolling, searching, and the use of keyboard shortcuts in general. <br /><br />
Furthermore, frames focus on layout rather than on information structure, and many authors of framed sites neglect to provide useful alternative content in the <NOFRAMES> element. Both of these factors cause accessibility problems for browsers that differ significantly from the author's expectations and for search engines. <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Do search engines dislike frames?<br />
<br />
Search engines can link directly to framed content documents, but they cannot link to the combinations of frames for which those content documents were designed. This is the result of a fundamental flaw in the design of frames. <br />
<br />
Search engines try to provide their users with links to useful documents. Many framed content documents are difficult to use when accessed directly (outside their intended frameset), so there is little benefit if search engines offer links to them. Therefore, many search engines ignore frames completely and go about indexing more useful (non-framed) documents. <br />
<br />
Search engines will index your <NOFRAMES> content, and any content that is accessible via your <NOFRAMES> content. Such content should be useful when accessed directly from a search-engine link.<!--content-->I'm not sure that they would pose a problem to search engines. I've played a bit with iFrames... and I too think they are pretty darn kewl. Would I use them for a whole site..? I dunno... cause as I've come to understand through this board and a couple others, they still aren't real compatrible with any browser other then IE.. and I know that Netscape 4.7 ignores them completely and makes a horrid mess of any page they are on (like it just doesn't render the page at all... any content... bleh!).<br />
<br />
Maybe as browser's improve they would be a viable idea... but right now I think I'd be real sure before using them that almost all your traffic would be using IE..<br />
<br />
Just my two cents worth here.<br />
<br />
Oh and Montroze dear... there is a difference between iFrames and regular frames.. iFrames are... well... framlets in a sense that its a inserted section into a page that is independent of the rest of the page as far as content. Actually easier for small snippets of content then fighting framing an entire site.
<!--content-->very well said Mary. I do have to agree they can look cool but as mary said, NS4.x does not like them. if you want to target only IE then by all means go right ahead. <!--content-->How Contrary Mary (sorry I couldn't resist that one )<br /><br />
Thank you both for your responses.<br />
As far as NN 4.7 *SPITS* is concerned I was thinking along thr lines of having a browser sniffer, a redirect to a page with a bog standard layout for those ppl still using that schmuck of a browser. Man I H8 that thing.<br />
<br />
So kewl then, but what about the 'different arrows' instead of scrollbars, do youse guys think it's be possible?<br />
<br />
Thankyou both for your input, it's a nightmare regarding frames and search Engy's innit?<br />
<br />
So I can take it that iframe doesn't really get put in that catagory tho'?<br />
<br />
Regards, <br />
<br />
d<!--content-->
The only reason I don't have "silver bells and ****le shells and marigolds all in a row" is cause I killed them. Like I said... I don't think iFrames would bother search engines...though any content that gets loaded into them will probably not get noted. That at least is my guess because of the nature of them, both the search engines and the iFrames.<br /><br />
Wish I could help on the arrows thing... but I haven't a clue. Bet one of the mods might know though...
<br /><br />
Don't hate the browser... for many years it really was better then IE to me. Its only been the past few months that I've stopped using it for anything other then layout testing. You're idea on the browser sniffer deal is a good one though. Yeah its a pain in the.. ahem... buuut... for now unfortunately its what we as page creators and designers have to wrestle with.<br />
<br />
Look at it this way... cross-browser compatibility keeps your brain from getting stale and lazy.
<!--content-->I think you can use the arrows that you were talking about. I remember seeing a page that used them, but for the life of me can't remember what is was. I will look around and see if I can find it. An Iframe is like an include,1 from what I understand, so you should not have any problem with search engines.<!--content-->From a usability point of view, they cause problems. Users get all confused when trying to print or using the back button. I stay away from them whenever possible.<br />Marilyn<!--content-->Originally posted by The Dreamer <br />
<br />
Oh and Montroze dear... there is a difference between iFrames and regular frames.. iFrames are... well... framlets in a sense that its a inserted section into a page that is independent of the rest of the page as far as content. Actually easier for small snippets of content then fighting framing an entire site.
<br /><br />
Yes I know that, the posting was about a framed site as it mentioned, I didnt referance iframes in the posting.<br />
<br />
I have a framed site.
<!--content-->To replace scrollbars by images:<br /><br />
<img name="scrollUp" alt="Scroll Up" src=http://www.htmlforums.com/archive/index.php/"scrollUp.gif" onclick="window.scrollBy(-10)"><br />
<img name="scrollDown" alt="Scroll Down" src=http://www.htmlforums.com/archive/index.php/"scrollDown.gif" onclick="window.scrollBy(10)"><br />
<br />
Will work for IE4+ and NS6. (Will also for NN4 but not in IFrames.)<br />
Change the value (10) to scroll by a greater/lesser amount.<!--content-->i have no problems with them, except with netscape conflicts. I think their good for people that dont have access to ssi<!--content-->