Since I'm building quite a few frames sites now, I thought I should ask:<br />
What percentage of peoples browsers (aprox.) cannot support frames?<br />
I'd like to know this as I'm pondering whether or not to build 'non-frames' versions of all my sites, which could be a bit time consuming.<br />
<br />
Thanks in advance,<br />
Dave.<!--content-->As far as I know it's still not poss to properly make a frame site a fave, and of course links can't be properly targetted on ''self' they've gotta be opened in a new window<br />
right.<br />
<br />
I think for intranet sites they are great but for the Web, I'm not so sure.<br />
<br />
<br />
dirtystim<!--content-->Dave, I don't know if there would be such stats available.<br />
<br />
I used to run A1 JavaScripts as two seperate sites (one in frames, the other not). It was becoming to much of a problem having to add content to two sites for the same thing, and as the non-framed site was expanding to include tools and tutorials which were not on the framed site, it was time to think about what I was doing. I ran a poll on the framed site asked visitors if frames should be removed from this site or not. The results were about 80% wanted it to remain in frames. So what does that tell you?<br />
<br />
In the end, A1 had to move servers and needed some serious updates, so it was easier to just build up one site (which ended up being non-framed). I also believe 123webmaster used to be in frames wayyyyy back in its early days.<br />
<br />
If you have a nice tidy frameset and can manage it well, stick with it, I don't think you will loose traffic over it, but when you find you're out-growing your frames, then they have to go.<!--content-->Hi
<br />
<br />
I used to like frames when I was new to web design. I feel it totally depends on your site. Would using frames REALLY make it worthwhile for your visitors? It's also a matter of personal preference. Personally, I would base my choice on: 1)how general the site is(ie. who my visitors are)?<br />
2)Will I be able to use tables and still update my site easily?<br />
3)Do I want to be easily indexed by search engines(only if you care about search rankings as some engines have problems indexing sites which uses frames. If your site is established, it doesn't really matter)<br />
<br />
I'd try to use tables instead of frames now if I can.<!--content-->I personally wouldn't consider the search engine part, you can have more success with search engine ranking using frames if you have your index page set up correctly. I can give you some pointers if you need them.<!--content-->Thanks all for yor advice.<br />
dirtyslim: I didn't really understand your post, so if you care to post again you'd be more than welcome.<!--content-->frames... hmmmmm... not easy to bookmark.<!--content-->i decided to do a complete redesign on my website, and during this redesign i decided to do away with frames. i just dont like them.<br />
<br />
the only problem is i now to learn to use tables properly.<!--content-->hey retro,<br />
if you managed to work out frames, then working with tables are a piece of cake....<br />
<br />
<br />
ana<!--content-->I'll agree with Ana, Tbales are a piece of cake! Here are some links to tutorials, Q&A, and more !<br />
<br />
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.volcanic-design.com/volc_links.htm">http://www.volcanic-design.com/volc_links.htm</a><!-- m --><br />
<br />
also, your questions on tables are solved in this forum as well!<!--content-->I actually think that complicated nested tables can get a bit confusing, while frames are usually quite straight forward.<br />
Anyway for help on frames or tables checkout <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.htmlclinic.com">http://www.htmlclinic.com</a><!-- m --><!--content-->I think that almost everybody can view frames by now. It would have to be someone running IE 2 or lower or some rarely used browser. You could use the no frame tag to direct them to Download <!--more--> an update for IE and/or Netscape.<br />
<NOFRAME><br />
This site uses frames. Your browser does not support frames. <br />
Download <!--more--> a free copy of <br />
<A HREF=http://www.htmlforums.com/archive/index.php/"http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/default.htm"><br />
Internet Explorer</A> <br />
or <br />
<A HREF=http://www.htmlforums.com/archive/index.php/"http://home.netscape.com/Download <!--more-->/0222101/10000-----_qual.html"><br />
Netscape</A> <br />
and return to view this site.<br />
</NOFRAME><br />
<br />
I don't like frames. I think what dirtystim was trying to say is that it is real annoying to click a link to an outside site and have it open in your frames. You want those to open in a new window. <br />
<br />
I don't know about the saving to favorites or bookmarks thing, I've never had a problem saving a webpage whether it is in frames or not. It saves the URL to the frameset page not each and every page that opens in a frame. <br />
<br />
One thing that is more important than whether people have a browser which can view frames is what monitor size they are using. I've got a 17" monitor now, and some people size their frames so badly it is hard to view the one page you really want to see with 2 or more pages competing for space. I can't imagine how bad that must look on a smaller monitor.<!--content-->i will post a link to my first attempt at frames tommorow.<br />
<br />
yeh once i got the basics of tables i found them quite easy, also i was impressed by the level of control they give you, though i can be quite tough when you got tables inside tables with tables inside tables i forgot to give my tables names that was my mistake.<!--content-->Hi All!<br />
<br />
I strongly against the use of frames, making simple things complicated, difficult to book mark, search engines submissions and there are some more another problem.<br />
<br />
Tables, nested tables - lovely, easy to create and handle.<!--content-->I don't know the percentages either, remember that it is not just a question of which browser people are using, frames can be turned on or off.<br />
<br />
But as to the question of building a non-frames version:<br />
Don't. It doesn't make sense to maintain two versions. There are so many disadvantages to frames, that you should avoid them - using tables instead for instance - unless the sheer size of your page makes that impossible.<br />
<br />
A good example would be if you run a webpage for the US Library of Congress. On the left you have links to all the books, on the right you have information about a particular book. Obviously you don't want to update every page every time the library acquires a new book, so I think the book links in a frame is a good idea.<br />
<br />
If we are talking a hundred pages or less, I would definitely go for tables.<br />
<br />
But if your site is such that frames are really, really needed - forget the idea of maintaining a separate version as well.<!--content-->Frames can be turned on or off??? I've never seen that in any of my browsers. Where is that option?<!--content-->hmmm,i dont really see a problem, especialy if frames<br />
are used only for navigation:<br />
<br />
---------<br />
<noframes><br />
<br />
ur browser is bad, doesnt support frames, this page will look weird, but u can still use it<br><br />
<br><a href=http://www.htmlforums.com/archive/index.php/"link to your navigation frame">enter</a><br />
<br />
</noframes><br />
---------<br />
<br />
i could be very wrong tho , it happened before<!--content-->I've used frames and haven't had a problem with them. The trick I've found is to make sure you set the percentage small enough just for your button, or menu.<br />
<br />
And make sure you target your links properly. <br />
<br />
I'd say look at my site, but unfortunately my FTP program has decided to be finicky about uploading my new htmls, so my site is temporarily not working properly. <br />
<br />
dang, it's always something.<!--content-->
What percentage of peoples browsers (aprox.) cannot support frames?<br />
I'd like to know this as I'm pondering whether or not to build 'non-frames' versions of all my sites, which could be a bit time consuming.<br />
<br />
Thanks in advance,<br />
Dave.<!--content-->As far as I know it's still not poss to properly make a frame site a fave, and of course links can't be properly targetted on ''self' they've gotta be opened in a new window<br />
right.<br />
<br />
I think for intranet sites they are great but for the Web, I'm not so sure.<br />
<br />
<br />
dirtystim<!--content-->Dave, I don't know if there would be such stats available.<br />
<br />
I used to run A1 JavaScripts as two seperate sites (one in frames, the other not). It was becoming to much of a problem having to add content to two sites for the same thing, and as the non-framed site was expanding to include tools and tutorials which were not on the framed site, it was time to think about what I was doing. I ran a poll on the framed site asked visitors if frames should be removed from this site or not. The results were about 80% wanted it to remain in frames. So what does that tell you?<br />
<br />
In the end, A1 had to move servers and needed some serious updates, so it was easier to just build up one site (which ended up being non-framed). I also believe 123webmaster used to be in frames wayyyyy back in its early days.<br />
<br />
If you have a nice tidy frameset and can manage it well, stick with it, I don't think you will loose traffic over it, but when you find you're out-growing your frames, then they have to go.<!--content-->Hi
<br /><br />
I used to like frames when I was new to web design. I feel it totally depends on your site. Would using frames REALLY make it worthwhile for your visitors? It's also a matter of personal preference. Personally, I would base my choice on: 1)how general the site is(ie. who my visitors are)?<br />
2)Will I be able to use tables and still update my site easily?<br />
3)Do I want to be easily indexed by search engines(only if you care about search rankings as some engines have problems indexing sites which uses frames. If your site is established, it doesn't really matter)<br />
<br />
I'd try to use tables instead of frames now if I can.<!--content-->I personally wouldn't consider the search engine part, you can have more success with search engine ranking using frames if you have your index page set up correctly. I can give you some pointers if you need them.<!--content-->Thanks all for yor advice.<br />
dirtyslim: I didn't really understand your post, so if you care to post again you'd be more than welcome.<!--content-->frames... hmmmmm... not easy to bookmark.<!--content-->i decided to do a complete redesign on my website, and during this redesign i decided to do away with frames. i just dont like them.<br />
<br />
the only problem is i now to learn to use tables properly.<!--content-->hey retro,<br />
if you managed to work out frames, then working with tables are a piece of cake....<br />
<br />
<br />
ana<!--content-->I'll agree with Ana, Tbales are a piece of cake! Here are some links to tutorials, Q&A, and more !<br />
<br />
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.volcanic-design.com/volc_links.htm">http://www.volcanic-design.com/volc_links.htm</a><!-- m --><br />
<br />
also, your questions on tables are solved in this forum as well!<!--content-->I actually think that complicated nested tables can get a bit confusing, while frames are usually quite straight forward.<br />
Anyway for help on frames or tables checkout <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.htmlclinic.com">http://www.htmlclinic.com</a><!-- m --><!--content-->I think that almost everybody can view frames by now. It would have to be someone running IE 2 or lower or some rarely used browser. You could use the no frame tag to direct them to Download <!--more--> an update for IE and/or Netscape.<br />
<NOFRAME><br />
This site uses frames. Your browser does not support frames. <br />
Download <!--more--> a free copy of <br />
<A HREF=http://www.htmlforums.com/archive/index.php/"http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/default.htm"><br />
Internet Explorer</A> <br />
or <br />
<A HREF=http://www.htmlforums.com/archive/index.php/"http://home.netscape.com/Download <!--more-->/0222101/10000-----_qual.html"><br />
Netscape</A> <br />
and return to view this site.<br />
</NOFRAME><br />
<br />
I don't like frames. I think what dirtystim was trying to say is that it is real annoying to click a link to an outside site and have it open in your frames. You want those to open in a new window. <br />
<br />
I don't know about the saving to favorites or bookmarks thing, I've never had a problem saving a webpage whether it is in frames or not. It saves the URL to the frameset page not each and every page that opens in a frame. <br />
<br />
One thing that is more important than whether people have a browser which can view frames is what monitor size they are using. I've got a 17" monitor now, and some people size their frames so badly it is hard to view the one page you really want to see with 2 or more pages competing for space. I can't imagine how bad that must look on a smaller monitor.<!--content-->i will post a link to my first attempt at frames tommorow.<br />
<br />
yeh once i got the basics of tables i found them quite easy, also i was impressed by the level of control they give you, though i can be quite tough when you got tables inside tables with tables inside tables
i forgot to give my tables names that was my mistake.<!--content-->Hi All!<br /><br />
I strongly against the use of frames, making simple things complicated, difficult to book mark, search engines submissions and there are some more another problem.<br />
<br />
Tables, nested tables - lovely, easy to create and handle.<!--content-->I don't know the percentages either, remember that it is not just a question of which browser people are using, frames can be turned on or off.<br />
<br />
But as to the question of building a non-frames version:<br />
Don't. It doesn't make sense to maintain two versions. There are so many disadvantages to frames, that you should avoid them - using tables instead for instance - unless the sheer size of your page makes that impossible.<br />
<br />
A good example would be if you run a webpage for the US Library of Congress. On the left you have links to all the books, on the right you have information about a particular book. Obviously you don't want to update every page every time the library acquires a new book, so I think the book links in a frame is a good idea.<br />
<br />
If we are talking a hundred pages or less, I would definitely go for tables.<br />
<br />
But if your site is such that frames are really, really needed - forget the idea of maintaining a separate version as well.<!--content-->Frames can be turned on or off??? I've never seen that in any of my browsers. Where is that option?<!--content-->hmmm,i dont really see a problem, especialy if frames<br />
are used only for navigation:<br />
<br />
---------<br />
<noframes><br />
<br />
ur browser is bad, doesnt support frames, this page will look weird, but u can still use it
<br><br /><br><a href=http://www.htmlforums.com/archive/index.php/"link to your navigation frame">enter</a><br />
<br />
</noframes><br />
---------<br />
<br />
i could be very wrong tho , it happened before
<!--content-->I've used frames and haven't had a problem with them. The trick I've found is to make sure you set the percentage small enough just for your button, or menu.<br /><br />
And make sure you target your links properly. <br />
<br />
I'd say look at my site, but unfortunately my FTP program has decided to be finicky about uploading my new htmls, so my site is temporarily not working properly. <br />
<br />
dang, it's always something.
<!--content-->