How do you explain the concept of fully managed hosting to your clients?As a starting point, here's one explanation that it seems the kind of people who need fully managed hosting might understand.It's just like your shared hosting account, except you don't have to share the server with anybody else. In other words, no changes for you, just a more reliable and powerful service.One shopper's observation: There seems to be ALOT of competition in the server selling market, but I don't see much effort being applied to explain managed hosting in a way shoppers can understand AND believe in.The pitch is usually just a long list of tech specs that only someone who doesn't need managed hosting might understand. On site after site after site, almost exactly the same thing, as if all hosts on earth used the same lazy copywriter.Have any thoughts on this?Managed hosting: You never need to login to root. Or just as you said its just like a very big reseller hosting account. If there are any problems they are fixed for youA wonderful thing for noobs like me.I hope I will soon find a good and trustworhty dedicated 100% managed.Managed hosting: You never need to login to root.
Or just as you said its just like a very big reseller hosting account. If there are any problems they are fixed for you
Thanks TR Seeks, appreciate the link to your service, have a feeling from what I read here that I'll be meeting you soon.
As I see it, companies like yours seem to be the winners when hosts don't bother to convince their shoppers that fully managed really means fully managed.Managed hosting: You never need to login to root.
Or just as you said its just like a very big reseller hosting account. If there are any problems they are fixed for you
I like your first definition. It as always can be debated on if they can login to root or not, however just to go on that one i'd have to say,
"You don't have to login to root"
Again it ultimately depends on the market you target, from my own point of view I quite like the customer having root access since it also gives the opportunity for them to learn(if they are willing).
With that being said i'll say your definition is probably the only one out of many i've heared that I actually do like.The fact is they have root as some people want it. I mean for example if you have to download some software that is 100MB would you want to download it to your PC and then upload to the server? Doubt it, so I think root definetly should be available its just the fact that they should not need to use it.I normally explain it this way:
Is like renting an entire building but without the headache of doing all the maintanance. We take care of the cleaning, fix the problems, go to the store to purchase all broken hardware and mount it at no charge to you etc. We even monitor your building 24/7 to make sure everything is funcitonal.
All you need to do is use it...Any hosts that give root access to fully managed is semi-managed at best.A customer should *never* need root on a fully managed service, by its definition its "fully managed" - so why want/need root ?The fact is they have root as some people want it. I mean for example if you have to download some software that is 100MB would you want to download it to your PC and then upload to the server? Doubt it, so I think root definetly should be available its just the fact that they should not need to use it.The same could be accomplished with jailshell access, though (downloading the software directly to the server). Heck, H-Sphere has a file manager which allows you to wget, extract, etc. Root access is definitely not necessary.Any hosts that give root access to fully managed is semi-managed at best.A customer should *never* need root on a fully managed service, by its definition its "fully managed" - so why want/need root ?Some customers just want root... Even if they dont use itAnd this is when we tell them to get an unmanaged server.The customer is NOT always right when they ask for root on a "fully managed" server.And this is when we tell them to get an unmanaged server.The customer is NOT always right when they ask for root on a "fully managed" server.There was a big discussion a while ago in this forum about whether or not a fully managed host should give root or not. My opinion is not personally, however many people sited that you should give them root. I guess it all depends on the person who is running the business.In my opinion, is their server so they should have root access, is like having a house without a key, even if i have people taking care of the house I want to be able to go in without asking anyone to open the door for me.The kind of customers for whom fully managed hosting is appropriate will not have a clue what you guys are talking about, imho. As example: I've become a fairly able perl programmer, and have coded my own publishing system from scratch. But I would be hard pressed to make intelligent conversation about root anything. And lots and lots of people who have successful sites requiring their own server know lots less than I do.So this conversation makes sense within the context of this forum, but we've yet to translate the discussion in to language that is useful on the sales page. I don't have your expertise, but as a shopper, I always want to know, whats NOT included within the context of fully managed hosting? How will my experience and responsibilities change as I move from shared or VPS to dedicated fully managed?It's not enough to just say "you won't have to do anything on the server" because I've already purchased fully managed services from industry leading hosts where they expect me to install Cpanel updates, a job I know nothing whatsoever about. So, however you wish to define fully managed, it has to somehow distinguish itself CLEARLY from all the definitions that other hosts have used to muddle the conversation. Imho.How do you explain the concept of fully managed hosting to your clients?
As a starting point, here's one explanation that it seems the kind of people who need fully managed hosting might understand.
One shopper's observation: There seems to be ALOT of competition in the server selling market, but I don't see much effort being applied to explain managed hosting in a way shoppers can understand AND believe in.
The pitch is usually just a long list of tech specs that only someone who doesn't need managed hosting might understand. On site after site after site, almost exactly the same thing, as if all hosts on earth used the same lazy copywriter.
Have any thoughts on this?
That's actually pretty much the exact line we use when describing how we handle dedicated servers. They're treated just as any of our shared servers are, with two exceptions.
A) We can pretty much install whatever they want as long as it runs on the platform.
B) They're the only ones who set up accounts on the server.
Now in regards to root access, nobody gets shell root but the admins, because having two groups of admins working on a server is, generally, inviting disaster. HOWEVER, that being said, upon request we will setup NOPASSWORD sudo rules to get them access to particular pieces if they need to do so on a regular basis.I feel I can comment on this subject appropriately.
I haven't a clue how to manage a server and don't even know or wish to know what SSH/Apache/Perl etc is. My server is fully managed (by SeeksAdmin incidentally) but I do have root access and insist on having root access to the server.
The reason why I need root and insist upon it is so I can check the server's resources, check bandwidth for all my sites/domains upon it, check available space, open new accounts and delete accounts which are redundant. I don't actually ever touch anything else as I don't want to screw the server up and don't know what each of the items listed in WHM represent.
So basically I insist upon root access for the opening and closing of accounts myself and just seeing how the server is running such as how much memory/swap is being used, bandwidth levels and space levels.
I never touch anything that I am unsure off. I let SeeksAdmin take the lead of running and maintaining the server. Root access is a must for me for the reasons given above.
Cheers - DavI feel I can comment on this subject appropriately.
I haven't a clue how to manage a server and don't even know or wish to know what SSH/Apache/Perl etc is. My server is fully managed (by SeeksAdmin incidentally) but I do have root access and insist on having root access to the server.
The reason why I need root and insist upon it is so I can check the server's resources, check bandwidth for all my sites/domains upon it, check available space, open new accounts and delete accounts which are redundant. I don't actually ever touch anything else as I don't want to screw the server up and don't know what each of the items listed in WHM represent.
So basically I insist upon root access for the opening and closing of accounts myself and just seeing how the server is running such as how much memory/swap is being used, bandwidth levels and space levels.
I never touch anything that I am unsure off. I let SeeksAdmin take the lead of running and maintaining the server. Root access is a must for me for the reasons given above.
Cheers - DavYou don't actually need root access to do any of those listed things provided a control panel like cPanel or similar is in place...
Hmm....I'm left convinced that the hosting industry (those many host sites I've seen that is) doesn't really understand, or perhaps even care about, a certain part of the market, and that an opportunity exists for somebody here.Lots of the people who rent servers are like the hosts themselves, technically minded people who want lots of options and control. Because these clients and the host are so much alike, the sales pages, documentation, and support replies create a good communication between the two parties. So far so good.But, this whole system and culture seems to largely ignore what could be a much larger part of the market. That is, non-technical people with popular websites. "Mike Marketer" knows how to build his site, and understands Cpanel well enough to do the few basic things he needs to do. And because he is a good marketer, his site has outgrown shared hosting.What Mike wants next is exactly what he has now, but more elbow room to accommodate his increased traffic. What he doesn't want is a WHM manual. He chose to go in to the marketing business, not the Unix admin business. And he is very busy at the marketing business.So, what is appropriate for Mike, and how do you sell him?Mike knows how to use Cpanel for one account, for his purposes at least. So all he needs now that he has is own server is the ability to create more accounts, just like the one he has now. That's it. That's all he needs. And how do we sell Mike? By convincing him that getting his own server is not going to require him to learn or do anything new. First, we have to call this something other than "fully managed hosting" because this word has been abused enough that it really no longer has a meaning. Or rather, it has way too many meanings.Let's get in Mike's head. Right now he pays $20/mo, and his host takes care of EVERYTHING having to do with the server. Mike is happy. But now the host wants $200/mo for a server, and is beginning to tell Mike how he needs to update to the latest version of Cpanel and should take some time to read the WHM manual etc. Mike is unhappy now. He's paying 10 times as much as before, and getting more headaches as part of the bargain. Anyway, one man's observations and opinion. It looks like an opportunity big enough to drive a truck through for the right host. If a host is tired of the fact that their sales sites looks exactly like every other sales site in the industry, this could be a way to distinguish yourself.hmm I think the description you gave finishes rather ubruptly there... I think you would need to go on to how its just an "increased" shared plan. But either way in that case maybe its better for Mike to go to a VPS 
if he wants to be saving money that is..hmm I think the description you gave finishes rather ubruptly there...
Yes, I agree. Trying to avoid slipping too deeply in to a monologue rant. Ideally, we'd create these definitions as a group.
I think you would need to go on to how its just an "increased" shared plan.
Yes, I agree, the shared hosting experience is the place to begin the explanation, because that is the experience the user already knows.
Inexperienced shoppers may find "it's just like your shared hosting account, but bigger!" to be a sufficient sales pitch.
More experienced shoppers, who have already learned from experience that "fully managed" can mean just about anything, will need more specific and emphatic explanations from the selling host.
As example, what good does it do to say "we have great support!" when every host sales page on the Net says that, and most of them can't really do it, and everybody knows it? If a host really does have great support, and they really do want to be convincing, something more than the usual cliches will be needed to make the point.
This is what happens when we abuse the language, after awhile we have to invent a new one.
But either way in that case maybe its better for Mike to go to a VPS if he wants to be saving money that is..
Hmm. With respect, given that a VPS is still a server as far as the user goes, I'm not sure it addresses the challenge of who is responsible for what. But like you say, it does address the price issue.
Thanks for your input!A question that may clarify the opportunity:1) What percent of the public knows and enjoys server administration?2) What percent of the public probably feels that Unix is the most boring and annoying subject ever invented?As I see it, everybody is targeting group 1, while group 2 is likely 100 times bigger.1) What percent of the public knows and enjoys server administration?I assume you are talking people who buy hosting... I doubt very many at all do. Some may have dabbled in it but most wont know how to properly manage a server. Possibly 2%?2) What percent of the public probably feels that Unix is the most boring and annoying subject ever invented?On this one its probably easier to answer. I think that most people getting hosting wont find computers and lets make an assumption and say hence unix/linux boring. However the gamers out there and the younger people may find it boring. So lets say 85% find it interesting....As I see it, everybody is targeting group 1, while group 2 is likely 100 times bigger.By targetting number 1 are you not also targetting number 2. Just because they dont find it boring does not mean they can and feel safe in administrating their own server... And it is very easy to appeal to both. You on your main page state a "story" as you have said above and then just somewhere on the page, have a link for "you technical people" and show all the technical aspects of what you do. Dont you think that is a viable solution?Thanks for the thread TR.
I assume you are talking people who buy hosting... I doubt very many at all do. Some may have dabbled in it but most wont know how to properly manage a server. Possibly 2%?
Yes, people who buy hosting, good point, thanks for adding that clarification. Right, 2%, sounds good.
On this one its probably easier to answer. I think that most people getting hosting wont find computers and lets make an assumption and say hence unix/linux boring.
Hmm. 85% of those who buy hosting find Unix interesting? In today's GUI world, there's a big difference between finding computers and the net interesting, and finding Unix interesting? Millions upon millions have sites or blogs, how many even know what Unix is?
By targetting number 1 are you not also targetting number 2.
Hmm. One group wants control, and thus must accept some responsibility. WHM serves this group.
The other potentially larger group, just wants their server to work, they don't really care how or why. This group wants no responsibility for their server, and needs very little control. You know, exactly like a shared hosting client. They just want to be reassured that it's all taken care of.
So, I see these as two different groups, requiring two different products. As example, WHM is a welcome aid to one group, and an unwelcome pain in butt to the other group.
Just because they dont find it boring does not mean they can and feel safe in administrating their own server...
Yes, I would count myself in this group. Interested, but not capable. The thing is, it's not smart for me to be too interested, unless I'm going to take that interest to the level you have. I'd be smarter staying focused on my own business.
And it is very easy to appeal to both. You on your main page state a "story" as you have said above and then just somewhere on the page, have a link for "you technical people" and show all the technical aspects of what you do. Dont you think that is a viable solution?
Could be, sounds worth exploring.
Perhaps the question could be narrowed to, do you want WHM, or not?
If not, then you can't do anything other than create accounts, thus you can't break the server, thus the host has the ENTIRE responsibility for the server, as they do in a shared environment.
Dunno, how's that strike you?Well a control panel is just for the "users" sake so to speak. If you wanted a fully fully managed server you wouldnt even need a control panel, the client would just send in an email saying "please set up this domain, this database with this password, this email etc etc". No control panel is needed.So just narrowing fully managed down by saying "Do you want a control panel or not?" in my opinion does not really do it. You do make some very valid and good points but I dont agree with them all.In my opinion you can offer fully managed in two ways1. Client has root access, but you update the server do all the security, fix any problems etc2. Client does not have root you do everything.As i mention earlier it depends on what your opinion is. From my point of view it is much easier if the client does not go messing around in the server changing things he/she does not know about, but that does not mean the client does not want root. In my opinion I see no problem with offering both.Just returning to my post for a second.
I am not able to open/close new accounts using cpanel and must have WHM and thus root access. Unless I am able to open new accounts using cpanel???
Cheers - DavDav, w/o much discussion, you said you wanted root access to, " check server's resources, check bandwidth for all my sites/domains upon it, check available space, open new accounts and delete accounts which are redundant". SeeksAdmin supports Cpanel/ WHM. You can use these tools to:1. Check Cpu/Memory Usage2. Check bandwidth3. Check space4. Manage accounts or subdomainsThey say their staff is friendly and it looks like you can open a support ticket through their website or by sending them an e-mail. Have you discussed your needs with them?Patrick, he is already a client of ours as he mentioned.Yes, that was my understanding. Sorry, I didn't read your signature fully.Dav, thanks for pulling us out of the general back to a specific case.
The reason why I need root and insist upon it is so I can check the server's resources, check bandwidth for all my sites/domains upon it, check available space, open new accounts and delete accounts which are redundant.
Right, me too. These kind of no brainer jobs could possibly be separated from all the other WHM options that do require a more advanced knowledge.
I don't actually ever touch anything else as I don't want to screw the server up and don't know what each of the items listed in WHM represent.
But you have access to all the more advanced features via WHM, and thus have the opportunity to screw things up.
Therefore the host can not be expected to take full responsibility for your server.
Thus, by having access to features you don't understand and don't use, you've lost the most important feature of all.
This is just one way of looking at it, offered for your comments.squirreldog: To a certain extent I agree. They can still do damage via root WHM but its still limited. You can then also stop root SSH by disabling direct root login.In the option you could just give them a massive WHM reseller account for the whole server. If thats the route you wanted to takeThanks TR, I'm not sure what a massive WHM reseller account is, but that's OK, I don't mean to take up your whole day here.And the fact that I don't understand is kinda the point. If a host wants to distinguish themselves and grasp this opportunity, they'll look for ways to convince shoppers like myself and Dav that's we don't need to understand any of this thread. Just like we don't when we purchase shared hosting.To each their own of course, this just looks like an opening someone wishing to pull out of the pack might exploit. An opportunity perhaps, that's all.Well you know you can setup resellers... just make it a big reseller account covering the whole server. Unlimited specifications (according to WHM of course they are actually limited)That way they can create new accounts and not have access to the "dangerous" (as you put it) functions in WHM. Dont worry about taking up my time, I am quite enjoying this discussionDont worry about taking up my time, I am quite enjoying this discussion
Well, darn it, you shouldn't be.
Cause if hosts start catching on to this opportunity, they might start putting you out of a job.
Nah, that'll never happen. Just another crazy theory.
No worries, you're safe.Well, darn it, you shouldn't be.
Cause if hosts start catching on to this opportunity, they might start putting you out of a job.
Nah, that'll never happen. Just another crazy theory.
No worries, you're safe.The hosts need someone to manage their server Anyway I am fine giving my opinions on this, because to be honest it is a pretty vauge topic and there have been a lot of discussions about it in the past and each brings up its own interesting perspective.The hosts need someone to manage their server
Oh my, now you're just getting rude.
Yea, you're right, it's a slippery topic. That's the challenge.
Somewhere along the line from shared to dedicated, the subject gets complicated (for novices at least) and the complications breed uncertainty, and the uncertainty becomes an obstacle on the path to the order form.
So the marketing challenge, for one target group anyway, is...
How to remove the complications and uncertainty so buyers can do what they really want to do, just trust somebody and get on with it.
When I go to get my car repaired, there's only one reason I listen to the 10 minute explanation about my transmission etc. So I can meet the mechanic and scope him out. Transmission conversations go right on by me, but I do have lots of practice getting a feel for people.
So, for the target market we are discussing, perhaps one approach is to remove most of the tech specs, and focus instead on introductions to the staff.
How about a video that takes you around the office, introducing various people in turn, showing a tidy server room, etc? I've never seen that on a hosting sales site, so if I did see it, that would be one host I'd remember.
You know, how would I sell a server to my mom? Not by talking about 250 GB SATA HD and Dual Xeon 3.0GHz.
But the main thing to remember is, if your host isn't using TR Seeks, they suck, so just forget it....I'm left convinced that the hosting industry (those many host sites I've seen that is) doesn't really understand, or perhaps even care about, a certain part of the market, and that an opportunity exists for somebody here.
Lots of the people who rent servers are like the hosts themselves, technically minded people who want lots of options and control. Because these clients and the host are so much alike, the sales pages, documentation, and support replies create a good communication between the two parties. So far so good.
But, this whole system and culture seems to largely ignore what could be a much larger part of the market.Sssshhhhhh... don't give away our secrets.
Marketing to the non-technical people is tough to do, but if done right, you get the type of clients that want nothing to do with the tech side of things, and you just insure they get great uptime and their site works. Which is easier said than done.
- John C.But the main thing to remember is, if your host isn't using TR Seeks, they suck, so just forget it. Hope thats not too sarcastic.On anouther note. How would you sell to your mum? I presume she has no tech knowledge, so how would you ddo it? that may help a lotHope thats not too sarcastic.
No, no, seriously no. Just a pathetic attempt to be a comodian.
On anouther note. How would you sell to your mum?
Well, my mom is in the hereafter, so I would *definitely* call to verify her credit card before I did anything else!
Seriously...
As above, tell her there's nothing she needs to know or learn about her new account. It's just like her shared account, I'll take care of everything else. End of change anxiety.
If I wanted to give her a new feature, like the ability to create accounts, I would have her click to popup a window to show her the new account creation form. On my service, I claim you can "make a site using only one form with two fields" and I show them a screenshot of the form, with the two fields. There it is, see for yourself.
My service as a free demo for those who want to take this a step farther.
I would (and do) tell her, I will bill you at the END of the month, after you've gotten what you paid for. Same thing, every month.
Ideally, I would give her a list of client sites, and set her loose to get her own testimonials. I did this with a previous company I had, and it worked wonders. Let the clients do the selling, they are the ones with the credibility.
Then, send her here, let her read the gossip. Con gossip is not all bad, as it lends credibility to the pro gossip.
Send her to the blogs by owners and staff. Show her pictures and videos.
In short, don't sell the technology, because she's not shopping for technology.
She's shopping for trust, so sell her the people.
After all this, she would probably ask, you don't still smoke those funny cigarettes like you did in high school, do you?Problem is if you go to far down that route on the non-technical stuff they will worry that you dont know the technical stuff
Or just as you said its just like a very big reseller hosting account. If there are any problems they are fixed for you
Thanks TR Seeks, appreciate the link to your service, have a feeling from what I read here that I'll be meeting you soon.
As I see it, companies like yours seem to be the winners when hosts don't bother to convince their shoppers that fully managed really means fully managed.Managed hosting: You never need to login to root.
Or just as you said its just like a very big reseller hosting account. If there are any problems they are fixed for you
I like your first definition. It as always can be debated on if they can login to root or not, however just to go on that one i'd have to say,
"You don't have to login to root"
Again it ultimately depends on the market you target, from my own point of view I quite like the customer having root access since it also gives the opportunity for them to learn(if they are willing).
With that being said i'll say your definition is probably the only one out of many i've heared that I actually do like.The fact is they have root as some people want it. I mean for example if you have to download some software that is 100MB would you want to download it to your PC and then upload to the server? Doubt it, so I think root definetly should be available its just the fact that they should not need to use it.I normally explain it this way:
Is like renting an entire building but without the headache of doing all the maintanance. We take care of the cleaning, fix the problems, go to the store to purchase all broken hardware and mount it at no charge to you etc. We even monitor your building 24/7 to make sure everything is funcitonal.
All you need to do is use it...Any hosts that give root access to fully managed is semi-managed at best.A customer should *never* need root on a fully managed service, by its definition its "fully managed" - so why want/need root ?The fact is they have root as some people want it. I mean for example if you have to download some software that is 100MB would you want to download it to your PC and then upload to the server? Doubt it, so I think root definetly should be available its just the fact that they should not need to use it.The same could be accomplished with jailshell access, though (downloading the software directly to the server). Heck, H-Sphere has a file manager which allows you to wget, extract, etc. Root access is definitely not necessary.Any hosts that give root access to fully managed is semi-managed at best.A customer should *never* need root on a fully managed service, by its definition its "fully managed" - so why want/need root ?Some customers just want root... Even if they dont use itAnd this is when we tell them to get an unmanaged server.The customer is NOT always right when they ask for root on a "fully managed" server.And this is when we tell them to get an unmanaged server.The customer is NOT always right when they ask for root on a "fully managed" server.There was a big discussion a while ago in this forum about whether or not a fully managed host should give root or not. My opinion is not personally, however many people sited that you should give them root. I guess it all depends on the person who is running the business.In my opinion, is their server so they should have root access, is like having a house without a key, even if i have people taking care of the house I want to be able to go in without asking anyone to open the door for me.The kind of customers for whom fully managed hosting is appropriate will not have a clue what you guys are talking about, imho. As example: I've become a fairly able perl programmer, and have coded my own publishing system from scratch. But I would be hard pressed to make intelligent conversation about root anything. And lots and lots of people who have successful sites requiring their own server know lots less than I do.So this conversation makes sense within the context of this forum, but we've yet to translate the discussion in to language that is useful on the sales page. I don't have your expertise, but as a shopper, I always want to know, whats NOT included within the context of fully managed hosting? How will my experience and responsibilities change as I move from shared or VPS to dedicated fully managed?It's not enough to just say "you won't have to do anything on the server" because I've already purchased fully managed services from industry leading hosts where they expect me to install Cpanel updates, a job I know nothing whatsoever about. So, however you wish to define fully managed, it has to somehow distinguish itself CLEARLY from all the definitions that other hosts have used to muddle the conversation. Imho.How do you explain the concept of fully managed hosting to your clients?
As a starting point, here's one explanation that it seems the kind of people who need fully managed hosting might understand.
One shopper's observation: There seems to be ALOT of competition in the server selling market, but I don't see much effort being applied to explain managed hosting in a way shoppers can understand AND believe in.
The pitch is usually just a long list of tech specs that only someone who doesn't need managed hosting might understand. On site after site after site, almost exactly the same thing, as if all hosts on earth used the same lazy copywriter.
Have any thoughts on this?
That's actually pretty much the exact line we use when describing how we handle dedicated servers. They're treated just as any of our shared servers are, with two exceptions.
A) We can pretty much install whatever they want as long as it runs on the platform.
B) They're the only ones who set up accounts on the server.
Now in regards to root access, nobody gets shell root but the admins, because having two groups of admins working on a server is, generally, inviting disaster. HOWEVER, that being said, upon request we will setup NOPASSWORD sudo rules to get them access to particular pieces if they need to do so on a regular basis.I feel I can comment on this subject appropriately.
I haven't a clue how to manage a server and don't even know or wish to know what SSH/Apache/Perl etc is. My server is fully managed (by SeeksAdmin incidentally) but I do have root access and insist on having root access to the server.
The reason why I need root and insist upon it is so I can check the server's resources, check bandwidth for all my sites/domains upon it, check available space, open new accounts and delete accounts which are redundant. I don't actually ever touch anything else as I don't want to screw the server up and don't know what each of the items listed in WHM represent.
So basically I insist upon root access for the opening and closing of accounts myself and just seeing how the server is running such as how much memory/swap is being used, bandwidth levels and space levels.
I never touch anything that I am unsure off. I let SeeksAdmin take the lead of running and maintaining the server. Root access is a must for me for the reasons given above.
Cheers - DavI feel I can comment on this subject appropriately.
I haven't a clue how to manage a server and don't even know or wish to know what SSH/Apache/Perl etc is. My server is fully managed (by SeeksAdmin incidentally) but I do have root access and insist on having root access to the server.
The reason why I need root and insist upon it is so I can check the server's resources, check bandwidth for all my sites/domains upon it, check available space, open new accounts and delete accounts which are redundant. I don't actually ever touch anything else as I don't want to screw the server up and don't know what each of the items listed in WHM represent.
So basically I insist upon root access for the opening and closing of accounts myself and just seeing how the server is running such as how much memory/swap is being used, bandwidth levels and space levels.
I never touch anything that I am unsure off. I let SeeksAdmin take the lead of running and maintaining the server. Root access is a must for me for the reasons given above.
Cheers - DavYou don't actually need root access to do any of those listed things provided a control panel like cPanel or similar is in place...
Hmm....I'm left convinced that the hosting industry (those many host sites I've seen that is) doesn't really understand, or perhaps even care about, a certain part of the market, and that an opportunity exists for somebody here.Lots of the people who rent servers are like the hosts themselves, technically minded people who want lots of options and control. Because these clients and the host are so much alike, the sales pages, documentation, and support replies create a good communication between the two parties. So far so good.But, this whole system and culture seems to largely ignore what could be a much larger part of the market. That is, non-technical people with popular websites. "Mike Marketer" knows how to build his site, and understands Cpanel well enough to do the few basic things he needs to do. And because he is a good marketer, his site has outgrown shared hosting.What Mike wants next is exactly what he has now, but more elbow room to accommodate his increased traffic. What he doesn't want is a WHM manual. He chose to go in to the marketing business, not the Unix admin business. And he is very busy at the marketing business.So, what is appropriate for Mike, and how do you sell him?Mike knows how to use Cpanel for one account, for his purposes at least. So all he needs now that he has is own server is the ability to create more accounts, just like the one he has now. That's it. That's all he needs. And how do we sell Mike? By convincing him that getting his own server is not going to require him to learn or do anything new. First, we have to call this something other than "fully managed hosting" because this word has been abused enough that it really no longer has a meaning. Or rather, it has way too many meanings.Let's get in Mike's head. Right now he pays $20/mo, and his host takes care of EVERYTHING having to do with the server. Mike is happy. But now the host wants $200/mo for a server, and is beginning to tell Mike how he needs to update to the latest version of Cpanel and should take some time to read the WHM manual etc. Mike is unhappy now. He's paying 10 times as much as before, and getting more headaches as part of the bargain. Anyway, one man's observations and opinion. It looks like an opportunity big enough to drive a truck through for the right host. If a host is tired of the fact that their sales sites looks exactly like every other sales site in the industry, this could be a way to distinguish yourself.hmm I think the description you gave finishes rather ubruptly there... I think you would need to go on to how its just an "increased" shared plan. But either way in that case maybe its better for Mike to go to a VPS if he wants to be saving money that is..hmm I think the description you gave finishes rather ubruptly there... Yes, I agree. Trying to avoid slipping too deeply in to a monologue rant. Ideally, we'd create these definitions as a group.
I think you would need to go on to how its just an "increased" shared plan.
Yes, I agree, the shared hosting experience is the place to begin the explanation, because that is the experience the user already knows.
Inexperienced shoppers may find "it's just like your shared hosting account, but bigger!" to be a sufficient sales pitch.
More experienced shoppers, who have already learned from experience that "fully managed" can mean just about anything, will need more specific and emphatic explanations from the selling host.
As example, what good does it do to say "we have great support!" when every host sales page on the Net says that, and most of them can't really do it, and everybody knows it? If a host really does have great support, and they really do want to be convincing, something more than the usual cliches will be needed to make the point.
This is what happens when we abuse the language, after awhile we have to invent a new one.
But either way in that case maybe its better for Mike to go to a VPS
if he wants to be saving money that is..Hmm. With respect, given that a VPS is still a server as far as the user goes, I'm not sure it addresses the challenge of who is responsible for what. But like you say, it does address the price issue.
Thanks for your input!A question that may clarify the opportunity:1) What percent of the public knows and enjoys server administration?2) What percent of the public probably feels that Unix is the most boring and annoying subject ever invented?As I see it, everybody is targeting group 1, while group 2 is likely 100 times bigger.1) What percent of the public knows and enjoys server administration?I assume you are talking people who buy hosting... I doubt very many at all do. Some may have dabbled in it but most wont know how to properly manage a server. Possibly 2%?2) What percent of the public probably feels that Unix is the most boring and annoying subject ever invented?On this one its probably easier to answer. I think that most people getting hosting wont find computers and lets make an assumption and say hence unix/linux boring. However the gamers out there and the younger people may find it boring. So lets say 85% find it interesting....As I see it, everybody is targeting group 1, while group 2 is likely 100 times bigger.By targetting number 1 are you not also targetting number 2. Just because they dont find it boring does not mean they can and feel safe in administrating their own server... And it is very easy to appeal to both. You on your main page state a "story" as you have said above and then just somewhere on the page, have a link for "you technical people" and show all the technical aspects of what you do. Dont you think that is a viable solution?Thanks for the thread TR.
I assume you are talking people who buy hosting... I doubt very many at all do. Some may have dabbled in it but most wont know how to properly manage a server. Possibly 2%?
Yes, people who buy hosting, good point, thanks for adding that clarification. Right, 2%, sounds good.
On this one its probably easier to answer. I think that most people getting hosting wont find computers and lets make an assumption and say hence unix/linux boring.
Hmm. 85% of those who buy hosting find Unix interesting? In today's GUI world, there's a big difference between finding computers and the net interesting, and finding Unix interesting? Millions upon millions have sites or blogs, how many even know what Unix is?
By targetting number 1 are you not also targetting number 2.
Hmm. One group wants control, and thus must accept some responsibility. WHM serves this group.
The other potentially larger group, just wants their server to work, they don't really care how or why. This group wants no responsibility for their server, and needs very little control. You know, exactly like a shared hosting client. They just want to be reassured that it's all taken care of.
So, I see these as two different groups, requiring two different products. As example, WHM is a welcome aid to one group, and an unwelcome pain in butt to the other group.
Just because they dont find it boring does not mean they can and feel safe in administrating their own server...
Yes, I would count myself in this group. Interested, but not capable. The thing is, it's not smart for me to be too interested, unless I'm going to take that interest to the level you have. I'd be smarter staying focused on my own business.
And it is very easy to appeal to both. You on your main page state a "story" as you have said above and then just somewhere on the page, have a link for "you technical people" and show all the technical aspects of what you do. Dont you think that is a viable solution?
Could be, sounds worth exploring.
Perhaps the question could be narrowed to, do you want WHM, or not?
If not, then you can't do anything other than create accounts, thus you can't break the server, thus the host has the ENTIRE responsibility for the server, as they do in a shared environment.
Dunno, how's that strike you?Well a control panel is just for the "users" sake so to speak. If you wanted a fully fully managed server you wouldnt even need a control panel, the client would just send in an email saying "please set up this domain, this database with this password, this email etc etc". No control panel is needed.So just narrowing fully managed down by saying "Do you want a control panel or not?" in my opinion does not really do it. You do make some very valid and good points but I dont agree with them all.In my opinion you can offer fully managed in two ways1. Client has root access, but you update the server do all the security, fix any problems etc2. Client does not have root you do everything.As i mention earlier it depends on what your opinion is. From my point of view it is much easier if the client does not go messing around in the server changing things he/she does not know about, but that does not mean the client does not want root. In my opinion I see no problem with offering both.Just returning to my post for a second.
I am not able to open/close new accounts using cpanel and must have WHM and thus root access. Unless I am able to open new accounts using cpanel???
Cheers - DavDav, w/o much discussion, you said you wanted root access to, " check server's resources, check bandwidth for all my sites/domains upon it, check available space, open new accounts and delete accounts which are redundant". SeeksAdmin supports Cpanel/ WHM. You can use these tools to:1. Check Cpu/Memory Usage2. Check bandwidth3. Check space4. Manage accounts or subdomainsThey say their staff is friendly and it looks like you can open a support ticket through their website or by sending them an e-mail. Have you discussed your needs with them?Patrick, he is already a client of ours as he mentioned.Yes, that was my understanding. Sorry, I didn't read your signature fully.Dav, thanks for pulling us out of the general back to a specific case.
The reason why I need root and insist upon it is so I can check the server's resources, check bandwidth for all my sites/domains upon it, check available space, open new accounts and delete accounts which are redundant.
Right, me too. These kind of no brainer jobs could possibly be separated from all the other WHM options that do require a more advanced knowledge.
I don't actually ever touch anything else as I don't want to screw the server up and don't know what each of the items listed in WHM represent.
But you have access to all the more advanced features via WHM, and thus have the opportunity to screw things up.
Therefore the host can not be expected to take full responsibility for your server.
Thus, by having access to features you don't understand and don't use, you've lost the most important feature of all.
This is just one way of looking at it, offered for your comments.squirreldog: To a certain extent I agree. They can still do damage via root WHM but its still limited. You can then also stop root SSH by disabling direct root login.In the option you could just give them a massive WHM reseller account for the whole server. If thats the route you wanted to takeThanks TR, I'm not sure what a massive WHM reseller account is, but that's OK, I don't mean to take up your whole day here.And the fact that I don't understand is kinda the point. If a host wants to distinguish themselves and grasp this opportunity, they'll look for ways to convince shoppers like myself and Dav that's we don't need to understand any of this thread. Just like we don't when we purchase shared hosting.To each their own of course, this just looks like an opening someone wishing to pull out of the pack might exploit. An opportunity perhaps, that's all.Well you know you can setup resellers... just make it a big reseller account covering the whole server. Unlimited specifications (according to WHM
of course they are actually limited)That way they can create new accounts and not have access to the "dangerous" (as you put it) functions in WHM. Dont worry about taking up my time, I am quite enjoying this discussionDont worry about taking up my time, I am quite enjoying this discussionWell, darn it, you shouldn't be.
Cause if hosts start catching on to this opportunity, they might start putting you out of a job.
Nah, that'll never happen. Just another crazy theory.
No worries, you're safe.Well, darn it, you shouldn't be.
Cause if hosts start catching on to this opportunity, they might start putting you out of a job.
Nah, that'll never happen. Just another crazy theory.
No worries, you're safe.The hosts need someone to manage their server
Anyway I am fine giving my opinions on this, because to be honest it is a pretty vauge topic and there have been a lot of discussions about it in the past and each brings up its own interesting perspective.The hosts need someone to manage their server Oh my, now you're just getting rude.
Yea, you're right, it's a slippery topic. That's the challenge.
Somewhere along the line from shared to dedicated, the subject gets complicated (for novices at least) and the complications breed uncertainty, and the uncertainty becomes an obstacle on the path to the order form.
So the marketing challenge, for one target group anyway, is...
How to remove the complications and uncertainty so buyers can do what they really want to do, just trust somebody and get on with it.
When I go to get my car repaired, there's only one reason I listen to the 10 minute explanation about my transmission etc. So I can meet the mechanic and scope him out. Transmission conversations go right on by me, but I do have lots of practice getting a feel for people.
So, for the target market we are discussing, perhaps one approach is to remove most of the tech specs, and focus instead on introductions to the staff.
How about a video that takes you around the office, introducing various people in turn, showing a tidy server room, etc? I've never seen that on a hosting sales site, so if I did see it, that would be one host I'd remember.
You know, how would I sell a server to my mom? Not by talking about 250 GB SATA HD and Dual Xeon 3.0GHz.
But the main thing to remember is, if your host isn't using TR Seeks, they suck, so just forget it.
...I'm left convinced that the hosting industry (those many host sites I've seen that is) doesn't really understand, or perhaps even care about, a certain part of the market, and that an opportunity exists for somebody here.Lots of the people who rent servers are like the hosts themselves, technically minded people who want lots of options and control. Because these clients and the host are so much alike, the sales pages, documentation, and support replies create a good communication between the two parties. So far so good.
But, this whole system and culture seems to largely ignore what could be a much larger part of the market.Sssshhhhhh... don't give away our secrets.
Marketing to the non-technical people is tough to do, but if done right, you get the type of clients that want nothing to do with the tech side of things, and you just insure they get great uptime and their site works. Which is easier said than done.
- John C.But the main thing to remember is, if your host isn't using TR Seeks, they suck, so just forget it. Hope thats not too sarcastic.On anouther note. How would you sell to your mum? I presume she has no tech knowledge, so how would you ddo it? that may help a lotHope thats not too sarcastic.
No, no, seriously no. Just a pathetic attempt to be a comodian.
On anouther note. How would you sell to your mum?
Well, my mom is in the hereafter, so I would *definitely* call to verify her credit card before I did anything else!
Seriously...
As above, tell her there's nothing she needs to know or learn about her new account. It's just like her shared account, I'll take care of everything else. End of change anxiety.
If I wanted to give her a new feature, like the ability to create accounts, I would have her click to popup a window to show her the new account creation form. On my service, I claim you can "make a site using only one form with two fields" and I show them a screenshot of the form, with the two fields. There it is, see for yourself.
My service as a free demo for those who want to take this a step farther.
I would (and do) tell her, I will bill you at the END of the month, after you've gotten what you paid for. Same thing, every month.
Ideally, I would give her a list of client sites, and set her loose to get her own testimonials. I did this with a previous company I had, and it worked wonders. Let the clients do the selling, they are the ones with the credibility.
Then, send her here, let her read the gossip. Con gossip is not all bad, as it lends credibility to the pro gossip.
Send her to the blogs by owners and staff. Show her pictures and videos.
In short, don't sell the technology, because she's not shopping for technology.
She's shopping for trust, so sell her the people.
After all this, she would probably ask, you don't still smoke those funny cigarettes like you did in high school, do you?Problem is if you go to far down that route on the non-technical stuff they will worry that you dont know the technical stuff