Hello all,<BR><BR>I am fairly new to ASP in general. I can do some pretty basic things in the old school ASP. Link to Databases, view, update, add and delete records, that sort of thing. I'm not very sophisticated with the programming.<BR><BR>Is it better for me to continue looking at ASP 3.0 to hone my skills and then move up to ASP.net, or would I better off making the jump to .net right now and learning from this point.<BR><BR>Thanks<BR><BR>ClintI think it'll give you some good insights.<BR><BR>http://www.aspmessageboard.com/forum/aspplus.asp?M=344766&F=36&P=1Although I didn't participate in that thread, it mirrors my sentiments. I think that you should make the leap to ASP.NET.Though I agree the future will be .net (or whatever next MS will throw out at us), why would a junior coder have to make the leap now?<BR><BR>All the sites that boast how great this is obviously have biased views (much like the performance gains on the MySQL.com page vs other dbs and PHP vs ASP debate -- ironically on the php.org page)<BR><BR>So tell me, what would be the main benefit? Don't give me the 'OOP' capabilities, because quite frankly, designing an OOP project is extremely difficult -- even with my experience. It is a task that no junior coder should be forced into.<BR><BR>So, not counting the OOP, are you saying make the move cause Classic ASP is dead? The speed? I mean, if it's speed only, you won't be using ASP in the first place -- classic or .net. Correct?<BR><BR>I'm not trolling here, but I'd like to hear it from you what the main reasons are.1) While you are entirely correct...Classic ASP is not dead, it won't be more than a couple of years before it is. Yes...There will be legacy apps around for far longer than that, but three years from no, there will be *no* job market for ASP programmers as such. Why on earth, if you have the choice, would you want to put a year, or two years into learning a technology, only to have to turn around and learn a new one?<BR><BR>2) OOP is *not* extremely difficult. Yes, it *is* more difficult....And yes, that difficuly is compounded if you're versed in non-OO programming...All the more reason to go straight to .NET and skip ASP entirely. That way you avoid having to re-learn what essentially amounts to the reality that you know, as far as programming is concerned.<BR><BR>3) Because of the ease in moving back and forth between web-programming, and Windows programming. How many times have questions been asked, and when you tell them the answer is to build a component, or an ActiveX object, and you get back a "Huh? I don't know how to do that." <BR>With .Net...Consuming a web service is consuming a web service, whether you're doing it through a ASPX application, or a Windows form. <BR><BR>4) The tools in VS.NET are incredible. Mock-ups of cell phones for testing mobile apps, drag and drop SQL Server connections, pre-built re-sizing functionality...<BR><BR>I could give more, but is that what you were looking for?1. Because he'll have his feet wet with a language. You and I both know that once you learn one language, others are quick to pick up. But I'll give you this one -- assuming that .Net doesn't turn into an Edsel (which I have no doubt it won't)<BR><BR>2. Huh? I say again, extremely. Truthfully, have you had do several of these yet? It's a total ***** to break them down into classes (i.e., what should be an object, and what should be a function), several layers of inheritance, and can you tell me one time in a real world program where you actually used polymorphism? (I have found only one time in all my endeavours). These examples of "Dog is a type of Animal" are real easy to follow, until you have to build a shopping cart class or so. As far as someone jumping right into OOP, I disagree... it's tough. Look at the questions that plague the regular forum now, and VBS is pretty straight forward.<BR><BR>3. can't comment... don't know enough about the web services.<BR><BR>4. Yeah, I like the VS.Net layout. As for the mockups, you can download them from the Internet for free... almost like MS' waste of money ME -- buy the new OS, even though you can get all the features we're including free from the Internet.<BR><BR>But all in all, IF you can still code top down programs using VB.Net, sure, dive in... I just think VB6 is easier to follow at first for somebody just starting out.<BR><BR>Hail to the King, baby 
<BR>1. Truthfully....If you had to do it all over again, starting today, would VBScript be the language that you would start with? Not me. Yes, you have a point, he would have a starting place, but why start there, when with a bit more work, he could learn a language with *far* more potential, and that is far more useful?<BR><BR>2. No..I have not. I've done plenty of little things, but nothing complex enough yet to hold myself as any knid of authority. On this point, I'll defer to your knowledge of the subject.<BR><BR>3. It's huge. At the VS.Net launch, the MS guy did a demonstration....Built a web service, and a Windows app to consume in, and a mobile app to consume it, in 7 minutes and 15 seconds. If you're building web services for ASPX, there really is no learning curve to use them in enterprise desktop apps as well.<BR><BR>4. Just one example. Intellisense is another one that I love. And you can't deny that connecting to a SQL Sever in under 5 seconds, with the same kind of speed as C++ to ODBC isn't worth something.<BR><BR>5. VB6 is easier. So is VBS. But, personally, I don't think it's worth it. Like they say...If you need a $40,000 tool to do the job, you waste $10,000 if you buy a $50,000 tool. However, if you try to get by with a $30,000 tool, you've wasted $30,000.<BR><BR><BR>Hail to the no-bull-bona-fide king. 1. Nope. I think it would be much better to start with C++ and work your way up the food chain. As long as learning it doesn't put you over the edge in the first place. I started with VB, but moving to Java then to C++, I find very difficult coming from the VB world.<BR><BR>2. Heh, yeah, trust me... I'll venture to say that doing the full blown OOP projects take me a minimum of 4 times longer to accomplish.<BR><BR>3. I see...<BR><BR>4. Err, intellisense is in classic ASP/VB? It's done by the object programmer... depending on how lazy he is.<BR><BR><BR>I guess I wanted to hear reasons why people are jumping to the latest greatest versions -- more so I want to hear something different than "Cause Microsoft said so" or "It's the future" which seems to be the common denominator in reasoning for switching. <BR><BR>I mean, this is whole .Net is basically the Java language, and while that is pretty large in the marketplace, it hasn't 'revolutionized' the Internet. You have a small percentage of servers running IIS -- Apache is the king leader, and most people run *nix/Apache cause they hate MS to begin with. Sure, the .Net libs will port to *nix, but at what cost? Maybe the latest OS version of Red Hat will have 'em, but I don't see companies jumping up and down to get onto new versions -- esp if your bread and butter is your site.<BR><BR>So, since I respect your opinion, I wanted to hear it from you.>1. Nope. I think it would be much better to start with C++ and work your way up the food chain<BR><BR>Ugh. That "learning put you over the edge part"....Yeah, that would be me and C++. 
<BR><BR><BR>And no....I don't think I don't think that .NET will ever be the only option....I do think that, particularly two years from now, it *will* be the best option for many, many things....*Particularly* enterprise-level applications.<BR><BR>Every MS OS coming off the shelf from here to forever after will have runtime support...You no longer have to touch desktops, or write scripts to push program updates....You can do all of your data access from web services, and consume a single web service with any desktop app, web app, or mobile app that needs it.<BR>It really is a huge leap forward if you think about it. Far more so than Java. It's got cross-language inheritance, for crying out loud! Do you know how huge that is? If you have someone write an app in C#, because C# programmers are cheap that week, then later, you need to extend the functionality, you can bring a VB programmer in to do it, if he's willing to work for less than the C# programmers! That is a *massive* incentive for businesses to switch.<BR><BR>I dunno...I like it. It isn't perfect, but nothing is, and I think it has a lot to offer over the current alternatives. If I had to focus on *one* technology right now....That would be it.<BR><BR>My two cents.>It's got cross-language inheritance, for crying out loud! Do you know how huge that is?<BR><BR>Hmmm, okay. How is that different than me writing a COM object that other programmers have a bunch of utility classes? This is assuming that the VB programmer couldn't read the C# code. Maybe not true inheritance via COM, but you could fake it <BR><BR>>That is a *massive* incentive for businesses to switch.<BR><BR>For that reason? What if I have a huge site -- I should risk breaking it right now? I don't agree with switching like that... maybe start new apps, but don't bother making the switch of established apps until MS gets the bugs worked out.<BR><BR><BR>>It isn't perfect, but nothing is<BR><BR>Wrong. I am 
<BR><BR>>For that reason? What if I have a huge site -- I should risk breaking it right now?<BR><BR>No...I didn't make myself clear. Not switch as in re-write current apps, but switch as in going forward, when they are writing new applications, using .NET, instead of sticking with VB, ASP, JSP, etc. indefinitely.<BR><BR>So...In short...I competely agree with what you're saying.<BR>Although, there are companies (MS used 'em as examples) that *have* gone back, re-written the entire business using .NET, betting the farm on it.<BR>Personally, it take a pretty good business case for *any* specific production app before I re-wrote it, in *any* language, for *any* reason. Certainly not in .NET just 'cause you could.<BR><BR><BR>>Wrong. I am <BR><BR>No no....I think I saw you make a mistake once. Thanks for the great dialog. You both make very strong points. I went to a .NET Seminar a little while back and must say the speed of development was quite impressive. <BR><BR>My biggest concern is making sure that I don't sell myself short on learning the best tools to keep myself employed for a long time to come.<BR><BR>Thanks to both of you for the opinions. It was really nice to hear from both sides.<BR><BR>Clint
<BR>1. Truthfully....If you had to do it all over again, starting today, would VBScript be the language that you would start with? Not me. Yes, you have a point, he would have a starting place, but why start there, when with a bit more work, he could learn a language with *far* more potential, and that is far more useful?<BR><BR>2. No..I have not. I've done plenty of little things, but nothing complex enough yet to hold myself as any knid of authority. On this point, I'll defer to your knowledge of the subject.<BR><BR>3. It's huge. At the VS.Net launch, the MS guy did a demonstration....Built a web service, and a Windows app to consume in, and a mobile app to consume it, in 7 minutes and 15 seconds. If you're building web services for ASPX, there really is no learning curve to use them in enterprise desktop apps as well.<BR><BR>4. Just one example. Intellisense is another one that I love. And you can't deny that connecting to a SQL Sever in under 5 seconds, with the same kind of speed as C++ to ODBC isn't worth something.<BR><BR>5. VB6 is easier. So is VBS. But, personally, I don't think it's worth it. Like they say...If you need a $40,000 tool to do the job, you waste $10,000 if you buy a $50,000 tool. However, if you try to get by with a $30,000 tool, you've wasted $30,000.<BR><BR><BR>Hail to the no-bull-bona-fide king. 1. Nope. I think it would be much better to start with C++ and work your way up the food chain. As long as learning it doesn't put you over the edge in the first place. I started with VB, but moving to Java then to C++, I find very difficult coming from the VB world.<BR><BR>2. Heh, yeah, trust me... I'll venture to say that doing the full blown OOP projects take me a minimum of 4 times longer to accomplish.<BR><BR>3. I see...<BR><BR>4. Err, intellisense is in classic ASP/VB? It's done by the object programmer... depending on how lazy he is.<BR><BR><BR>I guess I wanted to hear reasons why people are jumping to the latest greatest versions -- more so I want to hear something different than "Cause Microsoft said so" or "It's the future" which seems to be the common denominator in reasoning for switching. <BR><BR>I mean, this is whole .Net is basically the Java language, and while that is pretty large in the marketplace, it hasn't 'revolutionized' the Internet. You have a small percentage of servers running IIS -- Apache is the king leader, and most people run *nix/Apache cause they hate MS to begin with. Sure, the .Net libs will port to *nix, but at what cost? Maybe the latest OS version of Red Hat will have 'em, but I don't see companies jumping up and down to get onto new versions -- esp if your bread and butter is your site.<BR><BR>So, since I respect your opinion, I wanted to hear it from you.>1. Nope. I think it would be much better to start with C++ and work your way up the food chain<BR><BR>Ugh. That "learning put you over the edge part"....Yeah, that would be me and C++. <BR><BR><BR>And no....I don't think I don't think that .NET will ever be the only option....I do think that, particularly two years from now, it *will* be the best option for many, many things....*Particularly* enterprise-level applications.<BR><BR>Every MS OS coming off the shelf from here to forever after will have runtime support...You no longer have to touch desktops, or write scripts to push program updates....You can do all of your data access from web services, and consume a single web service with any desktop app, web app, or mobile app that needs it.<BR>It really is a huge leap forward if you think about it. Far more so than Java. It's got cross-language inheritance, for crying out loud! Do you know how huge that is? If you have someone write an app in C#, because C# programmers are cheap that week, then later, you need to extend the functionality, you can bring a VB programmer in to do it, if he's willing to work for less than the C# programmers! That is a *massive* incentive for businesses to switch.<BR><BR>I dunno...I like it. It isn't perfect, but nothing is, and I think it has a lot to offer over the current alternatives. If I had to focus on *one* technology right now....That would be it.<BR><BR>My two cents.>It's got cross-language inheritance, for crying out loud! Do you know how huge that is?<BR><BR>Hmmm, okay. How is that different than me writing a COM object that other programmers have a bunch of utility classes? This is assuming that the VB programmer couldn't read the C# code. Maybe not true inheritance via COM, but you could fake it <BR><BR>>That is a *massive* incentive for businesses to switch.<BR><BR>For that reason? What if I have a huge site -- I should risk breaking it right now? I don't agree with switching like that... maybe start new apps, but don't bother making the switch of established apps until MS gets the bugs worked out.<BR><BR><BR>>It isn't perfect, but nothing is<BR><BR>Wrong. I am <BR><BR>>For that reason? What if I have a huge site -- I should risk breaking it right now?<BR><BR>No...I didn't make myself clear. Not switch as in re-write current apps, but switch as in going forward, when they are writing new applications, using .NET, instead of sticking with VB, ASP, JSP, etc. indefinitely.<BR><BR>So...In short...I competely agree with what you're saying.<BR>Although, there are companies (MS used 'em as examples) that *have* gone back, re-written the entire business using .NET, betting the farm on it.<BR>Personally, it take a pretty good business case for *any* specific production app before I re-wrote it, in *any* language, for *any* reason. Certainly not in .NET just 'cause you could.<BR><BR><BR>>Wrong. I am <BR><BR>No no....I think I saw you make a mistake once. Thanks for the great dialog. You both make very strong points. I went to a .NET Seminar a little while back and must say the speed of development was quite impressive. <BR><BR>My biggest concern is making sure that I don't sell myself short on learning the best tools to keep myself employed for a long time to come.<BR><BR>Thanks to both of you for the opinions. It was really nice to hear from both sides.<BR><BR>Clint