Hey guys,<br />
<br />
Could ya check out this page, in two different browsers. This page looks how I want it to in Netscape, however if I view it via IE, it is all streched out. Why is this?!?!? How can I fix it?!?! Thanks for any help you guys can give me.<br />
<br />
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.digitalonyxdesigns.com/K%20&%20K%20Corp/DESIGN_22/pictures.html">http://www.digitalonyxdesigns.com/K%20& ... tures.html</a><!-- m --><!--content-->seems like some CSS issues..<!--content-->the only this i see is in IE the + signs are away from the blue but in NS they are next to it<br />
<br />
but to be honest i would not sweat it, you can ask any web site designer, you can't make a site work perfect in both NS and IE. unless there very basic it is very difficult.<br />
<br />
and even then you have AOL and SAFAI (the mac browser) to worry about, plus many more.<br />
<br />
80% or web users use IE so i would not worry to much.<!--content-->Well now, you've lost your innocence, haven't you?<br />
<br />
Here's the thing: It's a table problem.<br />
<br />
You have some pretty messay tables in there, so I would first figure out a way to use as few as possible - there is a lot of superfluous code.<br />
<br />
Second, for future reference, using css to handle most of your page layout is great, because you can use two different style sheets, using a javascript browser detect on your page to choose the one to use given a particular browser.<br />
<br />
Or not. I don't know.<!--content-->true. CSS is good but all the browsers make it up different so it is not always the best idea.<br />
<br />
standard HTML tables are the best idea if you can use them.<!--content-->Originally posted by chris9902 <br />
<br />
standard HTML tables are the best idea if you can use them. <br />
Not for the layout purposes though,<br />
you may use tales,however,if you can, try their usage as minimal as possible,because w3c seems to be moving towards losing them at all in future...<!--content--><rant>Tables are far worse than CSS for layout - create a standards-compliant layout, and it will work on as close to every browser available as possible. Correctly written (X)HTMl and CSS will work on anything from Lynx to the lastest IE - it may not look perfect, but it will work.</rant><br />
<br />
Adam<br />
<br />
P.S. Khalid, it would seem illogical to remove tables altogether as they are necessary for correctly marking-up tabular data. What gives you the idea they may remove them from the standards?<!--content-->Yeehaw! I love this ****!<br />
<br />
The most I use tables for are for VERY general 2 column layout, but even then I often rely on CSS float attribute on div tags.<br />
<br />
VERY elegant.<br />
<br />
Bottom line:<br />
<br />
CSS is where it is at. If you create a page whose layout and colour and font crap are all controled by css, you will ALWAYS get the best results.<br />
<br />
Just make sure to have a css for each of the main different browsers where you have problems. This is SO elegent, and so standards compliant because when you stip away just the css, you get a logical flow of text.<br />
<br />
Booyah!<!--content-->well maybe, but when i learn CSS i will use it.<br />
<br />
but for now i am happy with my sites and using tables to make them.<br />
<br />
they look good and all the fonts etc are controled by CSS so the load times are very quick.<br />
<br />
<!--content-->Originally posted by chris9902 <br />
the only this i see is in IE the + signs are away from the blue but in NS they are next to it<br />
<br />
<br />
Exactly, but those plus signs are way to far away from the blue. To far for me to just forget about em and not sweat about it. <br />
<br />
So what's everyones final advice?? Just scrap the navbar and start over again?? I don't know how to have javascript check which browser the user is using and then have the site access the correct CSS file, sorry. <br />
<br />
I appreicate everyones input thus far.<!--content-->Well, I'm just starting out, and I use tables alot. To me, they seem quite good for positioning groups of things. I have barely started to learn CSS. And, to be completely honest, it's very, very confusing for me.<!--content-->Originally posted by AdamGundry <br />
<br />
What gives you the idea they may remove them from the standards? <br />
<br />
Its my feeling as you notice what I said in my post I said "<br />
because w3c seems to be moving towards losing them at all in future...<br />
"<br />
and this is from my previous experience..you must remember<br />
at times <center> tag worked perfectly,,,,then <br />
<div align="" worked perfectly.....<br />
then ...etc..<br />
<br />
In my opinion it seems only natural progression on w3c part to eventually get rid of tables or evolve them into something modern..<br />
Believe me adam what seems illogical today may seem a joke tomorrow..isnt that something we all know as "evolution"?????<br />
<br />
take care<!--content-->Moomancow:<br />
<br />
To add my $0.02 to the discussion, you can probably figure out how to fix this and still stay with tables. My experience has been that if I force the table cell sizes, IE behaves. (Except the problems that _I_ have been having, as posted elsewhere in the forum.
) I still use tables extensively, but I feel that I need to migrate to CSS, as it offers much greater flexibility and neatness of code.<br />
<br />
However, I would make a recommendation on your nav bar, even though you didn't ask for one. Each cell in the navbar should be clickable, not just the word in it. Believe me, I have a lot of exposure to human factors, and I know that when the user sees a whole blue bar that represents a link, the user expects it to work like a button. There many easy ways to make the whole blue bar clickable, so you may want to do that.<br />
<br />
Just my $0.02.<!--content-->Thanks karayan! I appreciate your suggestions, and your 2 pennies are always welcome. How exactly do you force the table cell sizes though?? <br />
<br />
I like what you said about the blue bar, and after I'm done banging my head over this issue, I'll get to work on that one, haha!<!--content-->The W3C will not remove <table> element altogether although there is a strong possibility nested tables will become illegal in future versions of XHTML like they are with XHTML Basic 1.0 <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-basic/">http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-basic/</a><!-- m --> I don't use much XHTML Basic though I have a few live examples.<!--content-->Originally posted by Robert Wellock <br />
The W3C will not remove <table> element altogether although there is a strong possibility nested tables will become illegal in future versions of XHTML like they are with XHTML Basic 1.0 . <br />
<br />
Just for the argument sake,If w3c can make nested tables illegal,then whats stopping them from getting rid of tables altogether?<br />
The more people will learn to use CSS for layout purposes,tables will lose their effectiveness anyways.<br />
<br />
And as far as I am concern I can never say anything like this<br />
B]The W3C will not remove . [/B][/QUOTE] <br />
<br />
Why ,because I believe that change is the only thing in life that never siezes from happening( make sense??? )<br />
And as I said earlier,whats illogical today it will not be in few years,heck bring some one from 100 years ago in todays time and tell them that you can talk to your friends in space in real time...lol how illogical will that be for that person..<br />
<br />
This can go on and on..but point is things do change and I believe in that, and I believe given the time and knowledge everything can be changed.(last several thousand years human history is my evidence)<!--content-->Moomancow:<br />
<br />
By "forcing cell sizes" I meant using the width and height attributes of the TD element. If you know the size of things that go into your cell (e.g., images), then force the cell to hug them snuggly. If those image sizes change, e.g., with rollovers, then this might not work. In that case, either make both images (mouseout and mouseover) the same size, or make the TD exactly as big as the biggest image and force the position of the small image to be in the right place.<br />
<br />
I know my answer is very generalized, but I/m afarid i don;t have the time to look deeper into your code to see how i would do it. As a rule, keep things simple, though.<br />
<br />
You might also find the following link useful, that talks about weird gaps appearing in cells that are supposed to hug an image:<br />
<br />
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://devedge.netscape.com/viewsource/2002/img-table/">http://devedge.netscape.com/viewsource/2002/img-table/</a><!-- m --> <br />
<br />
It was given to my in response to my own question about spurious gaps in cells. Credit for this link goes to forum user Fang.<!--content-->Tables won't lose there value it just that too many people use them solely for manipulating graphical browser layout, and I know Khalid Ali didn't say tables would disappear, etc. like I never said that all current versions of XHTML Family support tables. <br />
<br />
Hmmm, I am going to have to sneak Firebird back onto the network.<br />
<br />
Well, I would try and avoid nested tables for your site because they can cause all sorts of problems.<!--content-->how so,<br />
<br />
i am using tables for my site and it works fine. it does what i want it to do and i have tested it on many CPU's and nothing is wrong with it.<br />
<br />
so what if you have to use <font> tags now and again, it works fine so why should people be forced to learn CSS becuase some people can't use tables any more.<!--content-->
<br />
Could ya check out this page, in two different browsers. This page looks how I want it to in Netscape, however if I view it via IE, it is all streched out. Why is this?!?!? How can I fix it?!?! Thanks for any help you guys can give me.<br />
<br />
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.digitalonyxdesigns.com/K%20&%20K%20Corp/DESIGN_22/pictures.html">http://www.digitalonyxdesigns.com/K%20& ... tures.html</a><!-- m --><!--content-->seems like some CSS issues..<!--content-->the only this i see is in IE the + signs are away from the blue but in NS they are next to it<br />
<br />
but to be honest i would not sweat it, you can ask any web site designer, you can't make a site work perfect in both NS and IE. unless there very basic it is very difficult.<br />
<br />
and even then you have AOL and SAFAI (the mac browser) to worry about, plus many more.<br />
<br />
80% or web users use IE so i would not worry to much.<!--content-->Well now, you've lost your innocence, haven't you?<br />
<br />
Here's the thing: It's a table problem.<br />
<br />
You have some pretty messay tables in there, so I would first figure out a way to use as few as possible - there is a lot of superfluous code.<br />
<br />
Second, for future reference, using css to handle most of your page layout is great, because you can use two different style sheets, using a javascript browser detect on your page to choose the one to use given a particular browser.<br />
<br />
Or not. I don't know.<!--content-->true. CSS is good but all the browsers make it up different so it is not always the best idea.<br />
<br />
standard HTML tables are the best idea if you can use them.<!--content-->Originally posted by chris9902 <br />
<br />
standard HTML tables are the best idea if you can use them. <br />
Not for the layout purposes though,<br />
you may use tales,however,if you can, try their usage as minimal as possible,because w3c seems to be moving towards losing them at all in future...<!--content--><rant>Tables are far worse than CSS for layout - create a standards-compliant layout, and it will work on as close to every browser available as possible. Correctly written (X)HTMl and CSS will work on anything from Lynx to the lastest IE - it may not look perfect, but it will work.</rant><br />
<br />
Adam<br />
<br />
P.S. Khalid, it would seem illogical to remove tables altogether as they are necessary for correctly marking-up tabular data. What gives you the idea they may remove them from the standards?<!--content-->Yeehaw! I love this ****!<br />
<br />
The most I use tables for are for VERY general 2 column layout, but even then I often rely on CSS float attribute on div tags.<br />
<br />
VERY elegant.<br />
<br />
Bottom line:<br />
<br />
CSS is where it is at. If you create a page whose layout and colour and font crap are all controled by css, you will ALWAYS get the best results.<br />
<br />
Just make sure to have a css for each of the main different browsers where you have problems. This is SO elegent, and so standards compliant because when you stip away just the css, you get a logical flow of text.<br />
<br />
Booyah!<!--content-->well maybe, but when i learn CSS i will use it.<br />
<br />
but for now i am happy with my sites and using tables to make them.<br />
<br />
they look good and all the fonts etc are controled by CSS so the load times are very quick.<br />
<br />
<!--content-->Originally posted by chris9902 <br />the only this i see is in IE the + signs are away from the blue but in NS they are next to it<br />
<br />
<br />
Exactly, but those plus signs are way to far away from the blue. To far for me to just forget about em and not sweat about it. <br />
<br />
So what's everyones final advice?? Just scrap the navbar and start over again?? I don't know how to have javascript check which browser the user is using and then have the site access the correct CSS file, sorry. <br />
<br />
I appreicate everyones input thus far.<!--content-->Well, I'm just starting out, and I use tables alot. To me, they seem quite good for positioning groups of things. I have barely started to learn CSS. And, to be completely honest, it's very, very confusing for me.<!--content-->Originally posted by AdamGundry <br />
<br />
What gives you the idea they may remove them from the standards? <br />
<br />
Its my feeling as you notice what I said in my post I said "<br />
because w3c seems to be moving towards losing them at all in future...<br />
"<br />
and this is from my previous experience..you must remember<br />
at times <center> tag worked perfectly,,,,then <br />
<div align="" worked perfectly.....<br />
then ...etc..<br />
<br />
In my opinion it seems only natural progression on w3c part to eventually get rid of tables or evolve them into something modern..<br />
Believe me adam what seems illogical today may seem a joke tomorrow..isnt that something we all know as "evolution"?????<br />
<br />
take care<!--content-->Moomancow:<br />
<br />
To add my $0.02 to the discussion, you can probably figure out how to fix this and still stay with tables. My experience has been that if I force the table cell sizes, IE behaves. (Except the problems that _I_ have been having, as posted elsewhere in the forum.
) I still use tables extensively, but I feel that I need to migrate to CSS, as it offers much greater flexibility and neatness of code.<br /><br />
However, I would make a recommendation on your nav bar, even though you didn't ask for one. Each cell in the navbar should be clickable, not just the word in it. Believe me, I have a lot of exposure to human factors, and I know that when the user sees a whole blue bar that represents a link, the user expects it to work like a button. There many easy ways to make the whole blue bar clickable, so you may want to do that.<br />
<br />
Just my $0.02.<!--content-->Thanks karayan! I appreciate your suggestions, and your 2 pennies are always welcome. How exactly do you force the table cell sizes though?? <br />
<br />
I like what you said about the blue bar, and after I'm done banging my head over this issue, I'll get to work on that one, haha!<!--content-->The W3C will not remove <table> element altogether although there is a strong possibility nested tables will become illegal in future versions of XHTML like they are with XHTML Basic 1.0 <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-basic/">http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-basic/</a><!-- m --> I don't use much XHTML Basic though I have a few live examples.<!--content-->Originally posted by Robert Wellock <br />
The W3C will not remove <table> element altogether although there is a strong possibility nested tables will become illegal in future versions of XHTML like they are with XHTML Basic 1.0 . <br />
<br />
Just for the argument sake,If w3c can make nested tables illegal,then whats stopping them from getting rid of tables altogether?<br />
The more people will learn to use CSS for layout purposes,tables will lose their effectiveness anyways.<br />
<br />
And as far as I am concern I can never say anything like this<br />
B]The W3C will not remove . [/B][/QUOTE] <br />
<br />
Why ,because I believe that change is the only thing in life that never siezes from happening( make sense???
)<br />And as I said earlier,whats illogical today it will not be in few years,heck bring some one from 100 years ago in todays time and tell them that you can talk to your friends in space in real time...lol how illogical will that be for that person..<br />
<br />
This can go on and on..but point is things do change and I believe in that, and I believe given the time and knowledge everything can be changed.(last several thousand years human history is my evidence)<!--content-->Moomancow:<br />
<br />
By "forcing cell sizes" I meant using the width and height attributes of the TD element. If you know the size of things that go into your cell (e.g., images), then force the cell to hug them snuggly. If those image sizes change, e.g., with rollovers, then this might not work. In that case, either make both images (mouseout and mouseover) the same size, or make the TD exactly as big as the biggest image and force the position of the small image to be in the right place.<br />
<br />
I know my answer is very generalized, but I/m afarid i don;t have the time to look deeper into your code to see how i would do it. As a rule, keep things simple, though.<br />
<br />
You might also find the following link useful, that talks about weird gaps appearing in cells that are supposed to hug an image:<br />
<br />
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://devedge.netscape.com/viewsource/2002/img-table/">http://devedge.netscape.com/viewsource/2002/img-table/</a><!-- m --> <br />
<br />
It was given to my in response to my own question about spurious gaps in cells. Credit for this link goes to forum user Fang.<!--content-->Tables won't lose there value it just that too many people use them solely for manipulating graphical browser layout, and I know Khalid Ali didn't say tables would disappear, etc. like I never said that all current versions of XHTML Family support tables. <br />
<br />
Hmmm, I am going to have to sneak Firebird back onto the network
.<br /><br />
Well, I would try and avoid nested tables for your site because they can cause all sorts of problems.<!--content-->how so,<br />
<br />
i am using tables for my site and it works fine. it does what i want it to do and i have tested it on many CPU's and nothing is wrong with it.<br />
<br />
so what if you have to use <font> tags now and again, it works fine so why should people be forced to learn CSS becuase some people can't use tables any more.<!--content-->