i would like to start this thread to get a debate over the benefits of css over html tables. please list pro and cons of both in you post along with why you prefer one over the other.This was done recently, and I think the final verdict was that you should read the article in my sig (if I remember right) : <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.webdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65677thanks">http://www.webdeveloper.com/forum/showt ... 5677thanks</a><!-- m -->, i got the answer that i was looking for.
Originally Posted by JPnyc
Well I feel like I have a good grasp of CSS, and yet i still find tables easier to deal with, particularly where cross-browser compatability is concerned, and ESPECIALLY if you're in a hurry. I really use both.<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://wdhaven.com/article/27/css---css-for-styling-stupid">http://wdhaven.com/article/27/css---css ... ing-stupid</a><!-- m -->
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/">http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/</a><!-- m -->
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.webdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34991thanks">http://www.webdeveloper.com/forum/showt ... 4991thanks</a><!-- m -->, i got the answer that i was looking for.
Originally Posted by JPnyc
Well I feel like I have a good grasp of CSS, and yet i still find tables easier to deal with, particularly where cross-browser compatability is concerned, and ESPECIALLY if you're in a hurry. I really use both.
That's interesting - you got the answer you were looking for. Does that mean that this thread was just a search for someone to confirm that your way of doing things is a valid one?
It seems to me that the only reason people stick to their beloved tables is because they can't handle css-p. They have a small problem (well, OK sometimes BIG problems), start crying and reach for the tables. The long-term benefits of not doing that are so great that I feel that encouraging people to use tables in the way you and JPnyc seem to be doing is bad for the future of the web.
Here are just a few reasons why you shouldn't use tables for layout :
Tables make your code ugly and difficult to read - especially when you start nesting tables and doing things like using spacer gifs to hold the page together.
Tables increase your markup by a lot and so make Download times slower.
CSS really isn't that difficult once you learn how to do it, and when you've learnt enough, life becomes a lot easier.
With tables, adding content to one column can cause all the columns to stretch and you have less control over how and where each element on the page is positioned.
Tables make the output of screen readers sound very strange.
There are more, but I've had my say now...I'm snipping out parts of BonRouge's quote to shorten it, but thought the entire post was excellent. Fair warning: I am a beginner at making a web site. But I'm doing fine. Sweat, yes. Payoff? Large!
t seems to me that the only reason people stick to their beloved tables is because they can't handle css-p. They have a small problem (well, OK sometimes BIG problems), start crying and reach for the tables. The long-term benefits of not doing that are so great that I feel that encouraging people to use tables in the way you and JPnyc seem to be doing is bad for the future of the web.
Here are just a few reasons why you shouldn't use tables for layout :
I think it's not so much a question of "should" or "shouldn't" as it is a question of how does your web page (and site) come out in the long run? Can you maintain it easily? How about making changes to a page? BonRouge and others have pointed out many of the benefits of using CSS for presentation; tables, you can use for tabular data.
Although I'm only a bit less than seven months old (as a web-maker, and I learned from knowing absolutely nothing at all), I'm an Olde Granny chronologically, and have studied many things in my life. Learning to make a web site, at my age, is difficult;I learn sort of slowly, but I will say this: I consider myself endlessly lucky that I found these forums very soon after I decided I really needed a web site, and there was nobody to make it for me (can't afford to hire anybody, and I use the free space that comes with my email account).
So the only tablies-layout I encountered was one made by a program called Album Express. I used its trial version to make my first photo gallery; my first purpose was to display photos.
I so much didn't like the results that I laboriously converted the entire thing to CSS, and to do that, I used these forums. I used one rather outdated, but useful book to help me learn what making a web site is all about; how to go about it. And other than that, I've been using these forums.
No question; the sweat for me to learn CSS was immense. Often I felt seasick, because I was so disoriented. But always, I could find help here (not the least, on BonRouge.com, so you could go there and have a look; also, on MstrBob's site, wdhaven.com, which actually provides several CSS layouts. (BonRouge provides an Easy Gallery, and I used that, to wonderful effect).
So what I suggest for anybody who is uncomfortable with changing from table-layouts to CSS is to stick with this forum, and use the resources made available from here. Most of you know a lot more about web-building than I do, and I believe if you dare experiment and actually change, you will discover for yourselves how wonderfully flexible CSS is.
Wed, 25 May 2005 20:16:01http://wdhaven.com/article/27/css---css-for-styling-stupid
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/">http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/</a><!-- m -->
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.webdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34991">http://www.webdeveloper.com/forum/showt ... adid=34991</a><!-- m -->
The 2nd link (hotdesign.com/seybold) was quite good, I thought.My site is about 6 years old and was originally designed using frames and tables and all manner of undesireable practices. Over time it has been rewritten in XHTML/CSS with a lot of PHP scripts to handle common sections. It is now lean, mean and much easier to maintain.CSS has definitely revolutionized web design and web developement
i can't wait for CSS 3 to come outstill disappointed that you cannot do an easy vertical-align:center in css, or to the bottom for that matter...
I know bon rogue did a test page for all sorts of vertical alignments but still it didn纾
Originally Posted by JPnyc
Well I feel like I have a good grasp of CSS, and yet i still find tables easier to deal with, particularly where cross-browser compatability is concerned, and ESPECIALLY if you're in a hurry. I really use both.<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://wdhaven.com/article/27/css---css-for-styling-stupid">http://wdhaven.com/article/27/css---css ... ing-stupid</a><!-- m -->
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/">http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/</a><!-- m -->
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.webdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34991thanks">http://www.webdeveloper.com/forum/showt ... 4991thanks</a><!-- m -->, i got the answer that i was looking for.
Originally Posted by JPnyc
Well I feel like I have a good grasp of CSS, and yet i still find tables easier to deal with, particularly where cross-browser compatability is concerned, and ESPECIALLY if you're in a hurry. I really use both.
That's interesting - you got the answer you were looking for. Does that mean that this thread was just a search for someone to confirm that your way of doing things is a valid one?
It seems to me that the only reason people stick to their beloved tables is because they can't handle css-p. They have a small problem (well, OK sometimes BIG problems), start crying and reach for the tables. The long-term benefits of not doing that are so great that I feel that encouraging people to use tables in the way you and JPnyc seem to be doing is bad for the future of the web.
Here are just a few reasons why you shouldn't use tables for layout :
Tables make your code ugly and difficult to read - especially when you start nesting tables and doing things like using spacer gifs to hold the page together.
Tables increase your markup by a lot and so make Download times slower.
CSS really isn't that difficult once you learn how to do it, and when you've learnt enough, life becomes a lot easier.
With tables, adding content to one column can cause all the columns to stretch and you have less control over how and where each element on the page is positioned.
Tables make the output of screen readers sound very strange.
There are more, but I've had my say now...I'm snipping out parts of BonRouge's quote to shorten it, but thought the entire post was excellent. Fair warning: I am a beginner at making a web site. But I'm doing fine. Sweat, yes. Payoff? Large!
t seems to me that the only reason people stick to their beloved tables is because they can't handle css-p. They have a small problem (well, OK sometimes BIG problems), start crying and reach for the tables. The long-term benefits of not doing that are so great that I feel that encouraging people to use tables in the way you and JPnyc seem to be doing is bad for the future of the web.
Here are just a few reasons why you shouldn't use tables for layout :
I think it's not so much a question of "should" or "shouldn't" as it is a question of how does your web page (and site) come out in the long run? Can you maintain it easily? How about making changes to a page? BonRouge and others have pointed out many of the benefits of using CSS for presentation; tables, you can use for tabular data.
Although I'm only a bit less than seven months old (as a web-maker, and I learned from knowing absolutely nothing at all), I'm an Olde Granny chronologically, and have studied many things in my life. Learning to make a web site, at my age, is difficult;I learn sort of slowly, but I will say this: I consider myself endlessly lucky that I found these forums very soon after I decided I really needed a web site, and there was nobody to make it for me (can't afford to hire anybody, and I use the free space that comes with my email account).
So the only tablies-layout I encountered was one made by a program called Album Express. I used its trial version to make my first photo gallery; my first purpose was to display photos.
I so much didn't like the results that I laboriously converted the entire thing to CSS, and to do that, I used these forums. I used one rather outdated, but useful book to help me learn what making a web site is all about; how to go about it. And other than that, I've been using these forums.
No question; the sweat for me to learn CSS was immense. Often I felt seasick, because I was so disoriented. But always, I could find help here (not the least, on BonRouge.com, so you could go there and have a look; also, on MstrBob's site, wdhaven.com, which actually provides several CSS layouts. (BonRouge provides an Easy Gallery, and I used that, to wonderful effect).
So what I suggest for anybody who is uncomfortable with changing from table-layouts to CSS is to stick with this forum, and use the resources made available from here. Most of you know a lot more about web-building than I do, and I believe if you dare experiment and actually change, you will discover for yourselves how wonderfully flexible CSS is.
Wed, 25 May 2005 20:16:01http://wdhaven.com/article/27/css---css-for-styling-stupid
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/">http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/</a><!-- m -->
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.webdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34991">http://www.webdeveloper.com/forum/showt ... adid=34991</a><!-- m -->
The 2nd link (hotdesign.com/seybold) was quite good, I thought.My site is about 6 years old and was originally designed using frames and tables and all manner of undesireable practices. Over time it has been rewritten in XHTML/CSS with a lot of PHP scripts to handle common sections. It is now lean, mean and much easier to maintain.CSS has definitely revolutionized web design and web developement
i can't wait for CSS 3 to come outstill disappointed that you cannot do an easy vertical-align:center in css, or to the bottom for that matter...
I know bon rogue did a test page for all sorts of vertical alignments but still it didn纾