Besides IE and netscape, what browsers should i make sure my page is layed out properly for?<!--content-->If you are talking about the code you use, then you should stick to html spec 4.01, this will keep you clean. It seems that things are going in the right direction with all the main browsers sticking to this where they can. There are various probs with certain tags on certain browsers, but this is a development problem on their side of the fence.<br />
<br />
You just stick to html 4.01 with thoughts of CSS (cascading stlye sheets). If you need some pointers on screen size when considering various browsers then read my next post. I am sorry for those that have run into it again, but I cant be bothered to type it again and again, and I think it says quite a bit.<!--content-->This is a post I made a good while ago and should give you some insight into screen space etc. Hope it helps. <br />
<br />
<br />
Without going into this too deeply, although I prob will the short answer is that it is very very very important. <br />
<br />
There are four main factors that will determine how a site is percieved, these being: <br />
<br />
Screen Size <br />
Screen Res <br />
Browser <br />
Platform (ie Mac, Web TV or PC) <br />
<br />
<br />
I hope screen size doesn't need explaining but to say that in my experiance people using 17" and 19" monitors at home still view sites at a 800*600 res... only because they don't know how to ajust the res. <br />
<br />
Screen res is an important function to plan for when writing a site. The res to design for is 800*600. Most surfers view at this res (51%), but that doesn't mean some surfers don't surf at 640*480 (6%). I think it safe to ignore the latter though. Often over looked is the live space of a screen. <br />
<br />
A browser affects the live space. Just because a screen res is 800*600, that doesn't mean you get that to play with. Live space is the space you have when tool bars etc are removed. The lowest live space you should design for is (accounting for Netscape/Explorer) 778*406 on a pc and 751*427 on a mac, that is obviously at a 800*600 screen res. Various versions of explorer and netscape have diffrent live spaces, those just quoted would be the lowest of versions 5+. Combining these two you get 751*406. <br />
<br />
As you can see, the software changes the display. Hardware will also chnge the display. From the last paragraph you will see that PC's and Macs work a little differently. But there is a 3rd and much overlooked way of connecting to the web. Via a TV. TV's to put it bluntly are crap for internet viewing and interactivity. But people are buying more and more of them as an alternative to hogging up a PC or because they are cheaper. I am not sure what a web tv screen res would be, but the live space is 544*378. I would never design for web tv, but that depends on your content. If you are interested in more on web tv go to: <br />
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://developer.webtv.net">http://developer.webtv.net</a><!-- m --> <br />
<br />
As for your question as I may have digressed a little... <br />
<br />
There are two ways to combat the various diplays in a design aspect. <br />
<br />
1] Design your page at a fixed width, ie at a 800*600 res, with a live space of 751*406. This way mac and pc viewers will have no problem with your site. Perhaps the best way to start the design is with a table, width set to 751... and include everything inside that. <br />
<br />
2] The alternative is to dynamically author your site so that your page expands to fill the user area. If you do this... design your page with your monitor at 800*600 res then tweak it at a higher res. Why? The page may look great at a low res but empty at a higher res. <br />
<br />
I hope that gives you some insight and some design ideas. <br />
More than anything I hope it made sense.<!--content-->Ok...<br />
<br />
As for what browsers you should try and design for:<br />
<br />
IE<br />
Netscape<br />
Opera<br />
Mozilla<br />
Lynx<br />
<br />
<br />
Now IE and Netscape dont need any introductions really, except for one point. IE5 can render CSS a little differently, and is called Quirks mode. This is a large topic to talk about in this thread so if you do a search on google for Quirks mode it will come back with some info on it.<br />
<br />
Opera is a very good browser to Download <!--more--> and try, its about 10MB in size but well worth it. They claim to be a very fast browser which I think that they are right about, when loading a web page they render it alot quicker than IE who may make you wait for the whole page or most of it before showing you any of it. Opera can through up some interesting CSS issues, but nothing to important.<br />
<br />
Mozilla is an open source web browser, that myself I dont have much experience with but I am told it is very good. Maybe some one else can talk more about it.<br />
<br />
Lynx is a browser designed for peope who surf with no web graphics at all. Alot of people with disabilitys use Lynx to surf the web.<br />
<br />
If you search on google for a browser information page or a browser stats page there are many web site that give detailed descriptions about browser usage the world over.<br />
<br />
It can all depend on who your visitors are goign to be, on what you should design your site towards.<!--content-->don't worry about Lynx, I have had 50 hits in the past year so it is not even worth it.<br />
<br />
IE <br />
Netscape <br />
Opera <br />
Mozilla <br />
Konqueor (Linux browser)<br />
<br />
the linux browser should work almost like NS so no worries there. if you can get it to look good in NS then you should be set as that is the brwoser to really code for. it is more strict than all the other ones and if it runs in that one you will be fine.<!--content-->wow. Thanks for all the useful information.Im still very new to html so a little bit was over my head but you all more than answered my question.as fas as screen res goes i kinda have a grasp on how to fix things and to my knowledge its not a problem.A specific concern i have is on this temp site i made <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.klt.2ya.com">www.klt.2ya.com</a><!-- w --> (wanted folks to be able to see where were playin for now) when viewed in IE it looks fine but when i view it in netscape 6.2 i see black lines at the bottom and top of the iframe that continue through the table.<br />
i want to have all the major browsers so i can check for little things like that.so thanks again all.<!--content-->well now when you talk about iframes that is an IE only thing. sure NS6 will see it, it doesn't support it thoroughly. so just make sure you know what tags you are talking about before you use it in different browsers<!--content-->I had no idea that iframe was a IE only thing also the site im currently working on uses iframe and looks fine in netscape 6 except i cant color the scroolbar.So what should i use to make it more universal and achive a similar effect?<!--content-->there really isn't one. NS6 will use the iframe, but IE is the only browser that lets you color scroll bars of any kind. <br />
<br />
to do anything like what you want you can try SSI (server side includes) but you won't have the scroll bar.<!--content-->you COULD use multiple frames, setting the automatic scrollbars to OFF on all except the center frame.<br />
<br />
but that is a pain in the arse.<br />
<br />
============================<br />
| 1 |<br />
|==========================|<br />
| 2 | | 3 |<br />
| | 4 | | <br />
| | center | |<br />
| | | |<br />
| | | |<br />
|==========================|<br />
| 5 |<br />
| |<br />
============================<!--content-->Originally posted by transmothra <br />
you COULD use multiple frames, setting the automatic scrollbars to OFF on all except the center frame.<br />
<br />
but that is a pain in the arse.<br />
<br />
============================<br />
| 1 |<br />
|==========================|<br />
| 2 | | 3 |<br />
| | 4 | | <br />
| | center | |<br />
| | | |<br />
| | | |<br />
|==========================|<br />
| 5 |<br />
| |<br />
============================ <br />
<br />
<br />
yea i thought about that too, but yes it would be a pain.I think im just gonna stick with the iframe, the scrollbar in NS6 dosent really clash with the new page<br />
and the code is still there for the coloring for IE users.besides that are there any reasons i shouldnt use iframes? ive read a few places not to use frames at all but i dont know i dont see the problem with em.<!--content-->if you really wanna use 'em, i say go for it. it's the public's responsibility to upgrade their OWN g-d browsers
...anyway i'm starting to see iframes used more and more. just think about who your core audience will be, and go from there. use a good stats thingie like <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.sitemeter.com">www.sitemeter.com</a><!-- w --> so you can see what your users are capable of. you might decide later on that it's either worth it (to keep the iframes), or not.<!--content-->
<br />
You just stick to html 4.01 with thoughts of CSS (cascading stlye sheets). If you need some pointers on screen size when considering various browsers then read my next post. I am sorry for those that have run into it again, but I cant be bothered to type it again and again, and I think it says quite a bit.<!--content-->This is a post I made a good while ago and should give you some insight into screen space etc. Hope it helps. <br />
<br />
<br />
Without going into this too deeply, although I prob will the short answer is that it is very very very important. <br />
<br />
There are four main factors that will determine how a site is percieved, these being: <br />
<br />
Screen Size <br />
Screen Res <br />
Browser <br />
Platform (ie Mac, Web TV or PC) <br />
<br />
<br />
I hope screen size doesn't need explaining but to say that in my experiance people using 17" and 19" monitors at home still view sites at a 800*600 res... only because they don't know how to ajust the res. <br />
<br />
Screen res is an important function to plan for when writing a site. The res to design for is 800*600. Most surfers view at this res (51%), but that doesn't mean some surfers don't surf at 640*480 (6%). I think it safe to ignore the latter though. Often over looked is the live space of a screen. <br />
<br />
A browser affects the live space. Just because a screen res is 800*600, that doesn't mean you get that to play with. Live space is the space you have when tool bars etc are removed. The lowest live space you should design for is (accounting for Netscape/Explorer) 778*406 on a pc and 751*427 on a mac, that is obviously at a 800*600 screen res. Various versions of explorer and netscape have diffrent live spaces, those just quoted would be the lowest of versions 5+. Combining these two you get 751*406. <br />
<br />
As you can see, the software changes the display. Hardware will also chnge the display. From the last paragraph you will see that PC's and Macs work a little differently. But there is a 3rd and much overlooked way of connecting to the web. Via a TV. TV's to put it bluntly are crap for internet viewing and interactivity. But people are buying more and more of them as an alternative to hogging up a PC or because they are cheaper. I am not sure what a web tv screen res would be, but the live space is 544*378. I would never design for web tv, but that depends on your content. If you are interested in more on web tv go to: <br />
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://developer.webtv.net">http://developer.webtv.net</a><!-- m --> <br />
<br />
As for your question as I may have digressed a little... <br />
<br />
There are two ways to combat the various diplays in a design aspect. <br />
<br />
1] Design your page at a fixed width, ie at a 800*600 res, with a live space of 751*406. This way mac and pc viewers will have no problem with your site. Perhaps the best way to start the design is with a table, width set to 751... and include everything inside that. <br />
<br />
2] The alternative is to dynamically author your site so that your page expands to fill the user area. If you do this... design your page with your monitor at 800*600 res then tweak it at a higher res. Why? The page may look great at a low res but empty at a higher res. <br />
<br />
I hope that gives you some insight and some design ideas. <br />
More than anything I hope it made sense.<!--content-->Ok...<br />
<br />
As for what browsers you should try and design for:<br />
<br />
IE<br />
Netscape<br />
Opera<br />
Mozilla<br />
Lynx<br />
<br />
<br />
Now IE and Netscape dont need any introductions really, except for one point. IE5 can render CSS a little differently, and is called Quirks mode. This is a large topic to talk about in this thread so if you do a search on google for Quirks mode it will come back with some info on it.<br />
<br />
Opera is a very good browser to Download <!--more--> and try, its about 10MB in size but well worth it. They claim to be a very fast browser which I think that they are right about, when loading a web page they render it alot quicker than IE who may make you wait for the whole page or most of it before showing you any of it. Opera can through up some interesting CSS issues, but nothing to important.<br />
<br />
Mozilla is an open source web browser, that myself I dont have much experience with but I am told it is very good. Maybe some one else can talk more about it.<br />
<br />
Lynx is a browser designed for peope who surf with no web graphics at all. Alot of people with disabilitys use Lynx to surf the web.<br />
<br />
If you search on google for a browser information page or a browser stats page there are many web site that give detailed descriptions about browser usage the world over.<br />
<br />
It can all depend on who your visitors are goign to be, on what you should design your site towards.<!--content-->don't worry about Lynx, I have had 50 hits in the past year so it is not even worth it.<br />
<br />
IE <br />
Netscape <br />
Opera <br />
Mozilla <br />
Konqueor (Linux browser)<br />
<br />
the linux browser should work almost like NS so no worries there. if you can get it to look good in NS then you should be set as that is the brwoser to really code for. it is more strict than all the other ones and if it runs in that one you will be fine.<!--content-->wow. Thanks for all the useful information.Im still very new to html so a little bit was over my head but you all more than answered my question.as fas as screen res goes i kinda have a grasp on how to fix things and to my knowledge its not a problem.A specific concern i have is on this temp site i made <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.klt.2ya.com">www.klt.2ya.com</a><!-- w --> (wanted folks to be able to see where were playin for now) when viewed in IE it looks fine but when i view it in netscape 6.2 i see black lines at the bottom and top of the iframe that continue through the table.<br />
i want to have all the major browsers so i can check for little things like that.so thanks again all.<!--content-->well now when you talk about iframes that is an IE only thing. sure NS6 will see it, it doesn't support it thoroughly. so just make sure you know what tags you are talking about before you use it in different browsers<!--content-->I had no idea that iframe was a IE only thing also the site im currently working on uses iframe and looks fine in netscape 6 except i cant color the scroolbar.So what should i use to make it more universal and achive a similar effect?<!--content-->there really isn't one. NS6 will use the iframe, but IE is the only browser that lets you color scroll bars of any kind. <br />
<br />
to do anything like what you want you can try SSI (server side includes) but you won't have the scroll bar.<!--content-->you COULD use multiple frames, setting the automatic scrollbars to OFF on all except the center frame.<br />
<br />
but that is a pain in the arse.<br />
<br />
============================<br />
| 1 |<br />
|==========================|<br />
| 2 | | 3 |<br />
| | 4 | | <br />
| | center | |<br />
| | | |<br />
| | | |<br />
|==========================|<br />
| 5 |<br />
| |<br />
============================<!--content-->Originally posted by transmothra <br />
you COULD use multiple frames, setting the automatic scrollbars to OFF on all except the center frame.<br />
<br />
but that is a pain in the arse.<br />
<br />
============================<br />
| 1 |<br />
|==========================|<br />
| 2 | | 3 |<br />
| | 4 | | <br />
| | center | |<br />
| | | |<br />
| | | |<br />
|==========================|<br />
| 5 |<br />
| |<br />
============================ <br />
<br />
<br />
yea i thought about that too, but yes it would be a pain.I think im just gonna stick with the iframe, the scrollbar in NS6 dosent really clash with the new page<br />
and the code is still there for the coloring for IE users.besides that are there any reasons i shouldnt use iframes? ive read a few places not to use frames at all but i dont know i dont see the problem with em.<!--content-->if you really wanna use 'em, i say go for it. it's the public's responsibility to upgrade their OWN g-d browsers
...anyway i'm starting to see iframes used more and more. just think about who your core audience will be, and go from there. use a good stats thingie like <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.sitemeter.com">www.sitemeter.com</a><!-- w --> so you can see what your users are capable of. you might decide later on that it's either worth it (to keep the iframes), or not.<!--content-->